Bukowski in Iran

[yasiejko]

Forgive me if this already has been posted here, but since I didn't see it I figured I'd turn you on to it: http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/154803.html

Some of Bukowski's works will be translated into Persian.

 

[Father Luke]

Very nice. And welcome!

 

[mjp]

I wonder, if some Iranian kid's family finds him or her reading Bukowski in Persian, do they stone the kid to death, or just cut off their hands with a rusty shamshir?

Just curious.

The Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance rocks!

We're all doomed.

What?

 

[Father Luke]

right. the censorship is quite amazing.
where are our poets from the middle east going to bloom?

and have you stumbled upon the found poetry of Guantanamo Bay?

 

[Johannes]

"The translation of the novel Memories of My Melancholy Whores - although the term whores was changed in the title to "sweethearts" - was first approved and the book even published but then the ministry realized that the book was "promoting prostitution."

- Memories of My Melancholy Sweethearts. Thx for my first smile today.

 

[roni]

maybe they could use Bukowski to show their people how degenerated our western culture is.

 

[Petey]

That was my first guess too.
Remember he was also published in the DDR ( German Democratic Republic)
before the wall was demolished in an anthology maybe for that reason!

 

[the only good poet]

"The book was immediately banned, but the ban just provoked more interest among Iranians and boomed on the black market where the book was and is sold at more than twice the initial price."

maybe guerilla poetics should have their "man in Tehran" furtively slipping deviant poesy into the Koran. just an idea.

 

[bospress.net]

I have a copy of a Bukowski book in Farsi, so it is not new news. Maybe that was published for Iranians outside of Iran, but it is not the first Bukowski book to be published in the language of the Iranians.

"The book was immediately banned, but the ban just provoked more interest among Iranians and boomed on the black market where the book was and is sold at more than twice the initial price."

maybe guerilla poetics should have their "man in Tehran" furtively slipping deviant poesy into the Koran. just an idea.

No one in Iran yet. Israel, England, Ireland, South Korea, China, Australia, Sweden, Netherlands, Canada and about 45 of the 50 states in the US.

Bill

 

[Dora]

I wonder, if some Iranian kid's family finds him or her reading Bukowski in Persian, do they stone the kid to death, or just cut off their hands with a rusty shamshir?

Just curious.

The Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance rocks!

I am Iranian. My mother is amused by my choosing Bukowski as a research topic, and she's an ayatollah's daughter (one who opposed the Islamic regime before he was killed).

So much for stereotypes ;)

 

[mjp]

So much for stereotypes ;)

Are you suggesting that Iran is a free and open culture? Do you live there now?

Citing the exceptions doesn't negate the stereotypes. I knew Iranians in the early 80s who came to America after the 1979 revolution, and they had to settle for much less here and prove themselves all over again (one flew jets in Iran and couldn't get a license to fly a model glider here). It's a typical immigrant story.

But what ends up happening, as you know (and can attest to far better than I can), in those kinds of situations, is a country can very easily lose the bulk of its smart and progressive people, and the only ones who remain behind are those who accept the incoming regime or don't have the means to flee. Iran isn't the only place its happened, that's also an old story.

So when I talk about Iranians enforcing brutal and idiotic punishments onto people for "crimes" that wouldn't raise an eyebrow in most other places, I'm talking about the Islamists who are still there (and elsewhere), desperately trying to drag the world back into the god damn dark ages.

Not you and your mother.

 

[Skygazer]

Quite a lot of Iranians came to the UK also post '79 and like the bulk of ordinary Egyptians, trying and failing right now to maintain a modern, secular society, they were lovely, smart, warm people.

I spent around 18 months in my mid twenties working in Saudia Arabia just as the first gulf war came to a close. Being in the midst of possibly the worst example of what religious control/input into government can do, changed my mind fast.

I fell in love with Saudi people, especially the bedouins, a more stoic, hardy bunch you couldn't meet.But the regime is utterly medieval and barbaric. The Mutowa (religious police, patrol all the townships and cities enforcing the strict adherence to the "rules" - the promotion of virtue and the prevention of vice. Watching the men getting herded into the Mosque up to five times a days like cattle and they are most definitely rounded up.

Once, I was heading to the bus stop to get back to the hospital compound, one of the mutowa with his armed guard escort stopped me and starting ranting, the torrent clearly included all the usual cliches about western whores etc. Although I was wearing the Abaya (black gown) I didn't have my head covered he was pointing at my head, jumping up and down, waving this big stick thing they carry about.

He went to grab my arm, I was a bit scared and shaking( it was so quiet, the shops were closed for prayer, the women just sitting waiting for them to open again, I thought I was going to end up in the back of the van) but I got angry too and shouted at him that he wasn't allowed to touch me, which did the trick, to be honest the guard with him looked embarrassed and relieved when they let me walk away. At the bus stop an egyptian anaesthetist said to me,"I'm so sorry that is not what Islam is about" I just said to him - yes it is.
Going there taught me very fast and first hand the risk the fundamentalists pose (of any religion) the repression of people and in particular - women.

 

[Dora]

Are you suggesting that Iran is a free and open culture? Do you live there now?

I don't live there but still have relatives there, know people who grew up there and see what's going on online.
I knew someone who hesitated travelling to Iran because he thought it would be full of islamists, and I told him not to confuse the people and the government.

But what ends up happening, as you know (and can attest to far better than I can), in those kinds of situations, is a country can very easily lose the bulk of its smart and progressive people, and the only ones who remain behind are those who accept the incoming regime or don't have the means to flee. Iran isn't the only place its happened, that's also an old story.

I would say that applies more, say, to Afghanistan, that never had the time to rebuild itself and have proper infrastructure. Public universities in Iran have a very very high level, and are frequented in majority by women.

My father became a writer after exile. His philosophical novels attack every religion, which means the government, indirectly. Then my sister met an Iranian girl in London who, when she discovered who her father was, cried in joy and said more than almost of the students in her philosophy department at her university were fans of his books. Books that are banned. And can be hard to read for people who are even slightly religious.

I also met this guy, an ingeneer student, who said all his friends loved Bukowski, and he was trying to write translations himself.

Admitedly, I am talking of young people who reached higher education in big cities. But from what I can also see online, from what I hear from people and relatives, there is a real thirst for freedom among the yunger generation, and a growing hatred towards the religious order among everyone.

At the bus stop an egyptian anaesthetist said to me,"I'm so sorry that is not what Islam is about" I just said to him - yes it is.
Going there taught me very fast and first hand the risk the fundamentalists pose (of any religion) the repression of people and in particular - women.

Ironically, the Saudi are considered as barbaric by most muslims in the world -if yu discount the salafists, which are seen as a horrific threat even to Muslims.
I can see where this Egyptian is coming from: my mother and her brothers grew up there. People back then in the 50's were religious, but not fanatical. Women would wear miniskirt at universities, and had more rights than women in France. He was not lying.

 

[Skygazer]

I know Dora and the real worry is that Egypt which as you know, has been trying for years now to maintain it's secularism is going to lose,
I just really hope not. We had a good few egyptians women working in our unit as interpreters for us as well as female egyptian doctors who worked there (only in Gynae of course, might have changed now).

A lot of wonderful memories from working there but horrific ones too that I wish I could forget, one was a beautiful, healthy, 7 month pregnant young woman who had been beaten up so severely by her husband, not only did she lose the baby, due to being kicked, but she also suffered severe brain injury. Not at all unique to Saudi Arabia or Islam, but any faith which incorporates the physical abuse of women into actual law and makes it a right rather than a crime (as long as it is moderate and not where it can be seen) which covers a lot of ground, obviously, since all you see is their eyes.

 

[Dora]

I don't think I could work or live in Saudi Arabia, and I say that as someone who had a Muslim upbringing.
Iran would be more bearable I guess. There was this film "All about Eli" that surprised people in the West, because it portrayed men and women, unmarried, going together on holiday and renting a house on the beach. They thought that was impossible in a "Muslim country". I was surprised at their surprise. That's the kind of cliché that made people constantly ask me why I'm drinking alcohol, why I'm not wearing a veil etc.

Back on topic, there was this German guy who laughed out loud when I told him what I do: "OMG! A Persian woman studying Bukowski!"
Guess it implied that every woman is a shrinking violet who can't handle Bukowski. And if that violet happened to be Persian, it was even more shrinking.

Next time someone says that I would reply that I've got ovaries of steel that can handle any type of misogynist B.S. And Franco-Persian steel at that.
(though Bukowski=misogynist can be arguable).

 

[Skygazer]

The most worrying thing is though, that the form of fundamentalism practised in Saudi and other places will spread, the moderates will lose.
I don't know how many more centuries it is going to take to throw off the shackles of religion, but then again you don't need religion to have an oppressive regime, but it helps.

There are women in Saudi fighting for women's rights e.g to vote, to drive, but it will always be a patriarchy as long as the government is tied in with religion.Same as elsewhere.

Old news below about how 15 girls died in a fire in 2002, due to the Mutowa preventing them from getting out of a burning school, because they had no head scarves or abayas on:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm

Ps I would argue Bukowski is not a mysogynist, I'd say he was just a bit confused, scared, bothered and bewildered by us.:wb:

 

[mjp]

I told him not to confuse the people and the government.

Indeed, that's important to remember. But if you look at what I said, I was talking about punishment, which is meted out by the government. The people (the kid reading Bukowski in Farsi) are normal. The government (chopping off his hands or boiling him in oil or any number of other antiquated bullshit) is insane.

I would say that applies more, say, to Afghanistan, that never had the time to rebuild itself and have proper infrastructure. Public universities in Iran have a very very high level, and are frequented in majority by women.

Now the universities might be wonderful. In the early 1980s, just after the revolution, they were not. And women certainly weren't welcome in them.

I had a girlfriend a million years ago whose family left Lebanon during the civil war in 1975 and came to California. They were not alone. The people with means don't sit mired in that shit, they get out. But now, almost 40 years later, she is back in Lebanon raising a family. And it's still dangerous to live there. But the point being, yes, people do go back and some of those countries do change.

The problem isn't the people, it's religion. As it always is.

I don't know how many more centuries it is going to take to throw off the shackles of religion...

It will take more centuries than humans have left.

 

[SamsaricHell]

Don't talk about a country you cannot possibly understand. Being a tourist in a country because you want to go "sight-seeing" and "experience different cultures", with your shit-stained trousers, does not give sufficient experience to construct opinions on the complexities of a culture. Just like how Bukowski was picked on for his accent, don't pick on Iran/Persia's culture from your biased Ethnocentric perspectives. You cannot possibly have a valid opinion until you actually study Iran's history a bit and spend significant time trying to understand its development, imbeciles. The average American or even European doesn't know anything about Iran prior to the '79 revolution, such as the overthrow of democratically selected leader Mossadegh, and they don't even know that Iran and Persia are the same thing. You should at least understand Iran's culture before talking out of your self-righteous asses. Even the Sassanian Zoroastrians killed Buddhists (e.g., a Parthian Iranian brought Buddhism to China), Manichaeists, and so forth. It's not like Pre-Islamic Iran is better than Post-Islamic, both being generalizations.

I bet you can't even correctly pronounce the fucking name.

Islam isn't the problem. If Islam were the primary issue, then figures like Avicenna, Omar Khayyam, Al Khwarizmi, Sa'di, and etc. would never pop up. Perhaps, it has to do with the particular interpretation of Islam. Maybe the fundamental issue with Islam and Christianity is one can derive practically any goddamn interpretation from it. You can support practically any agenda by cherry-picking quotes and emphasizing on your particular interpretations of them. I don't need you goddamn partial Europeans and Americans to say what is best for my country. Personally, I liked the Tudeh Party of Iran, and I think Iran is best as socialist while still maintaining its poetic culture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC6gOgZVtHY&feature=youtu.be

You cannot understand a culture that values poetry and a strong community because you were never brought up in one. America's war crimes make the Ayatollah look like a fucking baby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

Kill Anything That Moves: The Real American War in Vietnam

How much do I want to tell this to you motherfuckers who always harass me when you ask, "Where are you from? You have an accent." It's not like I can say this stuff in public, plebians. If you don't know something, then shut the fuck up rather than giving your half-assed opinions. I don't know about fucking physics... you don't see me walking around touting my opinion like it's all that...

 

[Bukfan]

The average American or even European doesn't know anything about Iran prior to the '79 revolution, such as the overthrow of democratically selected leader Mossadegh, and they don't even know that Iran and Persia are the same thing.

I know about the overthrow of Mossadegh and that Iran and Persia is the same thing, but then again, I´m not average (cough-cough). :p

 

[Skygazer]

Don't talk about a country you cannot possibly understand. Being a tourist in a country because you want to go "sight-seeing" and "experience different cultures", with your shit-stained trousers, does not give sufficient experience to construct opinions on the complexities of a culture.

Well Hi, Howya Doin?
Bad mood? I'm not really a trousers person, especially when I'm sightseeing; too uncomfy.
I can't speak for you, but the last time I pooped in my pants and carried it off with any degree of panache, I was about 2 yrs old, y'know that great age when insouciance is your middle name. It all gets rather fraught thereon in.

Inevitably this is going to sound like a grumble, but did you really read the posts, before the red mist of wrath, divine or otherwise came upon you. I was going to recap and explain - for your edification - but sod it, I'll sulk instead.

No one disrespects your wonderful culture and history or anywhere else in the Middle East, the problem is seeing people being treated like cattle by an oppressive religious regime.

If you want to believe in a god so be it, if you don't want to believe, surely you have the right, as a thinking human being, not to get beheaded for it, that's all.

 

[SamsaricHell]

The solution to the World's ills is not to run around and impose "democracies" which ultimately turn into plutocracies.

No one disrespects your wonderful culture and history or anywhere else in the Middle East, the problem is seeing people being treated like cattle by an oppressive religious regime.

Not your fucking business.

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/1978676_604005333006960_1049953816_n.jpg (this is an example of why imposing one's worldviews may have difficulties associated with it)

We don't need assholes like you running around telling us what's best... when you don't even have your own shit together. South Korea's suicide rate is high due to the pressure of the school system and how they place so much value on looks. Is it my obligation or "right" to go there and tell what they'd ought to do? Mind your own fucking business, goddammit.

If you want to believe in a god so be it, if you don't want to believe, surely you have the right, as a thinking human being, not to get beheaded for it,
that's all.

Do you lack reading comprehension? I made it clear in my post I don't believe in a god or gods. I do value poetry and respecting a culture.

America has caused more damage to the world in 300 years than Iran/Persia (same thing) did in 2400 years. Why don't you worry about your own shit?

I don't believe in going to work on time, even though I excel at other things. Should I be "financially beheaded" for it? It's like all these WASPS want you to bow down to the glory of their countenances and be their bitch. They view themselves as a god in relation to you - in a sense.

Also, it's important to note Iran is diverse. Some areas are very "uneducated" while others are more "educated". For example, it has the #1 rated Stem Cell Research facility in the world.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/16/raman.iranstemcell/

Maybe if this terrorist country, Americunts/Dumbfuckistan, didn't put such harsh sanctions on it, Iran would be better, huh?

 

[Skygazer]

Still in a bad mood!

I made it clear in my post I don't believe in a god or gods. I do value poetry and respecting a culture.

From where? the comfort of the USA.

You're concerned about the state of the world, good, we all are.

 

[SamsaricHell]

Still in a bad mood!


From where? the comfort of the USA.

Looks like someone is a patriotic tool.

I bet you vote within the 2-party system, huh? I don't blame you since third-party candidates are pretty much at severe disadvantage monetary-wise (e.g., Jill Stein and Ralph Nader got no recognition last election).

America is a plutocracy, plain and simple. It's no better than a repressive theocracy, in some sense. Actually, there have been theocracies that have worked better than this haphazard pluotocratic bullshit (e.g., Safavid Empire and Islamic Golden Age).

Ever seen the film Brazil directed by Gilliam? We're kind of getting there with the NSA. It's a land where either you've got money (comfort) or you don't (pain). And the way of getting money is not rational (e.g., researchers get fucked over while people in Wall Street gamble and constantly make money). America is a succession of Ancient Rome: its religion is one of constant wanting and running away, where people do not take time to reflect on the consequences of their actions, and even its bastardized interpretation of Christianity seems to reflect its social chaos and unreality. Even the way the plebeian is raised is so unsustainable and based on impractical practices (e.g., very rarely are people taught to eat locally).

Here is an example of a president who had real positions last election:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jill_Stein#Positions

Your country is going to hell, motherfucker. Maybe you should focus on that rather than "the muslims", dumbass?

Anyways, America was founded by the blood of its Natives. Persia/Iran was not founded by blood, and the Medes were known to freely intermingle with the native Elamites. Remember this fact if America's economy were ever collapse. Can this country ever get its shit together without setting its eyes on another war?

Both the plebeians and social elite are at fault. Worry about your own shit.

 

[Skygazer]

I really wish you would stop referring to shit - it's putting me right off.
That the US has been known as the world's imperialist bad guy for the last 70yrs or so (deserved or not) - old news. That they have their own very scary religious nut jobs ditto.
I don't happen to live there myself. If it makes you so angry, why not move?

 

[mjp]

the US [...] I don't happen to live there myself.

But you are right, he does live in America. In Georgia. I checked with the NSA. I have them on speed dial.

He manages to live up to the stereotypes he's so offended by, which is funny, but the rest of it is boring.

It's time to wage your Internet Jihad somewhere else cosmic sisyphus. You're putting everyone to sleep here.

 

[Skygazer]

I'm sorry, I think you need to be less cryptic, am I the cosmic sisyphus and why?

 

[skiroomalum]

As someone who rides the NYC subway system on a daily basis, his rants would fall somewhere between the lunatics
trying to "save" the sinning commuters and the over loud tourists from the Midwest attempting to get to Brooklyn.
Just kinda annoying. But then New York isn't really Merica, now is it?

 

[mjp]

you need to be less cryptic, am I the cosmic sisyphus [...] ?

Cryptic? How dare you! What are you, some sort of plebeian patriotic tool?

Anyway, calm down, you wacky imperialist, cosmic sisyphus is our friend's email address (@yahoo.com if anyone wants to carry on the debate in private).

 

[SamsaricHell]

Hello, I want to give my sincere apologies. When I read mjp's original messages, it triggered the pains I felt in high school from bullying. All of my life, I've been told I'm an Arab and from a backwards culture, but when I actually studied it, I realized this wasn't the case. I am not Arab, and also, Arabic culture is not as "backwards" as people think. I do not like it when people talk about Iran without actually spending time studying it. Watching the film Persepolis is not enough to get a grasp on the complexities of what really happened... It's far more nuanced than that.

I feel like Iran/Persia is an extremely complicated country to understand, and not even I can say what's ultimately best for it. As I made it clear, there was a time Iran was a theocracy, yet also very accepting of differing beliefs. This was during the Safavid time period (which was more Sufi), so a theocracy does not automatically mean a country is "backwards" or "uncivilized". In some situations, it can strengthen a community and encourage solidarity. I dislike how the average European or American tends to view Iran as being more progressive during its Zoroastrian time period, and while I respect my Zoroastrian roots (e.g., Nowrooz holiday), it is incorrect to attribute Iran's current oppressive regime to something inherent in Islam. The Sassanian Empire was also extremely oppressive, unlike the Achaeminid Empire.

I am a Buddhist. Contrary to popular belief, it was not the Arabs that eradicated Buddhism from Iran... but it was the Sassanian Zoroastrian clergy... Bahram I also had Mani (founder of Manichaeism) killed. Like I've said, Iran is an extremely complex culture, and saying what is best for Iran is not simple. Fixing sociopolitical issues cannot be reduced to generalities.

What I ultimately feel is best for the people of Iran is either a moderate form of Islamic Theocracy (something like Sufism) or a socialist government. Iran should not move towards a Westernized post-industrial capitalist lifestyle, and even now - it is moving in that direction. By doing that, it will lose its rich poetic tradition and its strong sense of community. The only reason Israel and USA want to destroy Iran is because of the balance of powers in the Middle East; if Iran gets too strong, then that would seriously throw off the balance of power in the region.

Iran is not like Saudi Arabia in the least... It has the #1 facility in Stem Cell Research for crying out loud! This is why I am asking you guys to stop acting like you know what is best for the country. In a sense, it is better for the oppressive regime to stay than for Iran to become a "secular Democracy" or revert back to something like Mohammad Reza Pahlavi.

Also, I sympathize with radical traditionalist in some sense. I do sympathize with people like Varg Vikernes, while not agreeing with everything they claim... I do not think it's possible for man to get over its ethnocentric impulses. It's best not to speak of knowing what's best for others, especially when one has little understanding of the culture. This was ultimately my point: I do not know what is best for others, including you, but you most certainly do not know what's best for a country either... That's all...

Being born in America... I feel as it currently has more problems than Iran, as I made clear in my last post. The 2-party system is holding it back. If someone like Jill Stein won, America would move in the right direction, but I view that as unlikely, given how she was treated in last election...

 

[Skygazer]

Cryptic? How dare you! What are you, some sort of plebeian patriotic tool?

Anyway, calm down, you wacky imperialist, cosmic sisyphus is our friend's email address (@yahoo.com if anyone wants to carry on the debate in private).

Oh, right, :):):).
ps I'm laughing at my confusion, not the thought of carrying on the debate, just sayin'.