burning on ebay
- Thread starter 1fsh2fsh
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Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
Is it real? The signature seems a bit sloppy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...03825&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_fvi=1&_rdc=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...03825&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_fvi=1&_rdc=1
Although there is a real sloppiness about the drawing and sig, there's nothing there that suggests anything but a genuine article.
I have a few sloppy ones too. Signed books, I mean.
I have a few sloppy ones too. Signed books, I mean.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
it looks real to me, but two things bother me about it.
1) It is sogned on the blank FFEP, not the title page or cover (which is where he would normally sign things) and
2) It is really sloppy.
Still, the drawing and signature look authentic enough that I cannot say that it is a fake, but it is not convincing enough to me to say that it is real.
Bill
1) It is sogned on the blank FFEP, not the title page or cover (which is where he would normally sign things) and
2) It is really sloppy.
Still, the drawing and signature look authentic enough that I cannot say that it is a fake, but it is not convincing enough to me to say that it is real.
Bill
It's not. The title page is black and white.
I can't definitively tell if it's authentic or not, but it's questionable enough that I wouldn't buy it.
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zoom man
Founding member
I saw this too and was immediately pissed off.
If practice makes perfect,
this guy needs more time forging Buk's signature
(if seller is here, sorry, so sue me).
I've never read his last name as 'Bucki'
and maybe he was in a rush,
but again, like someone said,
he wouldn't have drawn his little man then.
imho
(+ I agree with Bill's trepidations, and it was mjp who rightly pointed out the rushed sig then a drawing paradox)
If practice makes perfect,
this guy needs more time forging Buk's signature
(if seller is here, sorry, so sue me).
I've never read his last name as 'Bucki'
and maybe he was in a rush,
but again, like someone said,
he wouldn't have drawn his little man then.
imho
(+ I agree with Bill's trepidations, and it was mjp who rightly pointed out the rushed sig then a drawing paradox)
jordan
lothario speedwagon
i don't know guys, i think that we as a group sometimes tend to cast doubt on any signature that's not picture perfect, and an incidental signature as this is isn't always going to look as neat as the ones that he put in the bsp books. with an incidental signature, there will always be variation there. so, as long as what i think are the key points of the signature - again, the B and the CH - are clean, i'm inclined to think it's real. i don't buy the "if he was in a hurry, he wouldn't have done the sketch" thing... to me, it just looks like he was probably drunk at a reading or something. i mean, really? this is a forgery, with the drawing and everything? it's one hell of a good forgery if it is.
it kind of reminds me of this movie i saw about a painting that may or may not be a jackson pollock painting... even thought all kinds of forensic evidence proved it was a genuine pollock, the art world wouldn't agree that it was, because they just kept saying it didn't "sing" like a pollock does.
it kind of reminds me of this movie i saw about a painting that may or may not be a jackson pollock painting... even thought all kinds of forensic evidence proved it was a genuine pollock, the art world wouldn't agree that it was, because they just kept saying it didn't "sing" like a pollock does.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
Hi,
In the enlarged photo (#1) I have real issues. If you notice there is ink welled up at the stopping points (top of h, s, & k). These are telltale signs of tracing, where the forger hesitates, while Buk would not have hesitated (especially on a rushed signature like this). I'm not accusing the seller of doing this and am not even 100% sure that this is the case. It could be authentic. I'm just not comfortable with it. I would not pay $50 for it as I could never be comfortable selling it and would not want to pass on a possible forgery into the market.
If it is real, it is overpriced and worth maybe $150, not $300. If it is a fake, it is a pretty damn good fake.
Bill
In the enlarged photo (#1) I have real issues. If you notice there is ink welled up at the stopping points (top of h, s, & k). These are telltale signs of tracing, where the forger hesitates, while Buk would not have hesitated (especially on a rushed signature like this). I'm not accusing the seller of doing this and am not even 100% sure that this is the case. It could be authentic. I'm just not comfortable with it. I would not pay $50 for it as I could never be comfortable selling it and would not want to pass on a possible forgery into the market.
If it is real, it is overpriced and worth maybe $150, not $300. If it is a fake, it is a pretty damn good fake.
Bill
mjp
Founding member
Both. ;)
I don't think anyone is saying, "This is an obvious fake, stay away!" Like I said, I wouldn't call it fake, but I wouldn't buy it. I think that's what Bill is saying too. If I had to choose between definitely genuine or definite forgery on this one I would come down on the genuine side.
But I still wouldn't buy it. ;)
I don't think anyone is saying, "This is an obvious fake, stay away!" Like I said, I wouldn't call it fake, but I wouldn't buy it. I think that's what Bill is saying too. If I had to choose between definitely genuine or definite forgery on this one I would come down on the genuine side.
But I still wouldn't buy it. ;)
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
David;
Yes, this is possible, but I would expect that the gloopiness would be at the beginning of the stroke, not in the arc. The arc is a hesitation point. When you start writing, the ink would normally gloop up at the beginning, I would think.
Again, I agree with mjp. Could be real, could be a fake, but I am not comfortable saying either.
For $300, you can get a book that is 100% genuine and certifiably genuine, so I would not pay $300 for one that may or may not be real.
Bill
p.s. I have seen some forgeries in the past where they looked fine in the photos on ebay, but when they arrived, they were VERY VERY bad forgeries. I could even see the pencil where they traced first and then went over with a sharpie SLOWLY. Because of this, I could see, on the back of the page, every time that he stopped and started again. Of course, I got my money back and they did not want the books back. I stamped them FORGERY in permanent ink across the signature and sold them as reading copies....
Yes, this is possible, but I would expect that the gloopiness would be at the beginning of the stroke, not in the arc. The arc is a hesitation point. When you start writing, the ink would normally gloop up at the beginning, I would think.
Again, I agree with mjp. Could be real, could be a fake, but I am not comfortable saying either.
For $300, you can get a book that is 100% genuine and certifiably genuine, so I would not pay $300 for one that may or may not be real.
Bill
p.s. I have seen some forgeries in the past where they looked fine in the photos on ebay, but when they arrived, they were VERY VERY bad forgeries. I could even see the pencil where they traced first and then went over with a sharpie SLOWLY. Because of this, I could see, on the back of the page, every time that he stopped and started again. Of course, I got my money back and they did not want the books back. I stamped them FORGERY in permanent ink across the signature and sold them as reading copies....
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
it looks good to me at a glance. Somewhat overpriced, but OK. For that price, you could get a HARDBACK signed, numbered first if you are patient.
Bill
Bill
The drawing does look a bit slanted. I haven't seen too many like this one (and I've seen many like this one, if you follow). The Charles looks perfect, but the Bukowski looks very rushed; more like his later sigs. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. And there are a few characteristics in the sig that make it look just fine to me.
Overall, I'd say it's good. But I wouldn't buy it at that price. That's maybe $175 tops in this market. I bought a first signed and similarly doodled hardcover of Hollywood for $175 about a year ago, if that puts things into perspective.
And this looks to be the very same item we were discussing back in July. See posts above.
Disclaimer: my opinion only.
Overall, I'd say it's good. But I wouldn't buy it at that price. That's maybe $175 tops in this market. I bought a first signed and similarly doodled hardcover of Hollywood for $175 about a year ago, if that puts things into perspective.
And this looks to be the very same item we were discussing back in July. See posts above.
Disclaimer: my opinion only.
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
On any signature (not referring to anything about this one) sometimes the pen skips and the writer will go back over and redo missing portions so as to "fix" a messed up signature. This can make it look doctored or over-worked. I do this myself when I sign because the pen I use skips on some types of paper.
But if you see pencil tracing under the ink as Bill did on one, there is no way to explain away that away. Looking at the one above, it just feels real to me, even with the pooled ink. But I could be wrong.
But if you see pencil tracing under the ink as Bill did on one, there is no way to explain away that away. Looking at the one above, it just feels real to me, even with the pooled ink. But I could be wrong.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
... That "s" in Charles really looks labored and like it was written very slowly.
For such a fast signature, it looks like it took quite a while to write.
I'm still not in either camp, but scared enough that I would not touch this one....
bill
For such a fast signature, it looks like it took quite a while to write.
I'm still not in either camp, but scared enough that I would not touch this one....
bill
mjp
Founding member
It is.
Well at least I agreed with myself.
Watched the video, mjp, and all I can say is wow ... WOW!
Not enough time in the day for me to even get my laundry done and these guys are looping the shit down at their local, friendly Starbucks.
Wow ...
Why don't they come over here and loop my life so I can get the damn dishes done.
Grrrrr ....
Not enough time in the day for me to even get my laundry done and these guys are looping the shit down at their local, friendly Starbucks.
Wow ...
Why don't they come over here and loop my life so I can get the damn dishes done.
Grrrrr ....
Reciprocal reproductive reciprocation is repetitious.
Or someting like that.
Or someting like that.
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
If a guy sat in a room all day just writing thusands of fake signatures and little man doodles while studying genuine examples, and he had some artistic talent, he would get so familiar with the moves that he would eventually be able to do it with speed and grace, and it would look effortless, and it would be very hard to tell it's a fake. It might take several big marathon sessions, but he would soon get to that skill level. Then he could sign a few hundred books and sell them for $300 each or whatever. That thought would make me leery of any signed Bukowski book sold on eBay except those with solid documentation, such as the BSP hardcovers.
mjp
Founding member
There are some good books about historical document fakers, and the thing they rely on more than their knowledge of old inks and papers is people's willingness to believe that what they are buying is genuine, even if all signs indicate it is not. A large part of the con is selling the item convincingly.
I think a lot of people who buy questionable signatures want to believe they are real and they are getting "a good deal" on them, and the rest just don't know or care.
Anyone who does know the difference, or thinks that they do (us), will shy away from the questionable stuff. I don't like to see shysters and cocksuckers profiting from deception, but there's no way to stop that.
That's just a general observation, not a comment on this particular quickly-becoming-infamous signature.
I think a lot of people who buy questionable signatures want to believe they are real and they are getting "a good deal" on them, and the rest just don't know or care.
Anyone who does know the difference, or thinks that they do (us), will shy away from the questionable stuff. I don't like to see shysters and cocksuckers profiting from deception, but there's no way to stop that.
That's just a general observation, not a comment on this particular quickly-becoming-infamous signature.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
I have a book here on famous forgers. Some of these forgeries even ended up on the block at Southeby's. It took experts pleading with them to get them removed. That was after the full color catalog was already printed. In one case, the expert told the auction house who the forger was and provided examples. In this case, that I read about the majority of the autographs in one auction (I'm not sure of the auction house, but they were a big one) were from one forger and that comprised a majority of the auction....
You are right, mjp. They looked close enough to fool those wealthy investors that want something cool to put in their collection, but not enough to fool the true experts.
Some of these forgers were SO prolific that their forgeries still show up even though it has been 50 years since the forgeries were discovered.
Bill
You are right, mjp. They looked close enough to fool those wealthy investors that want something cool to put in their collection, but not enough to fool the true experts.
Some of these forgers were SO prolific that their forgeries still show up even though it has been 50 years since the forgeries were discovered.
Bill