burning on ebay

[Rekrab]

Forged Bukowski signatures are all too common. I wonder if anyone has attempted to fake an entire manuscript? Meaning they get old paper, a typewriter, make up a poem or story that sounds like something Bukowski would have written, "sign" it, and sell it as a signed unpublished manuscript. It would take research, good knowledge of Buk's work and bio, and writing talent, but it could be done. I wonder if the average collector would somehow sense that it's a fake? To what degree does intuition enter into evaluating the authenticy of a manuscript?

 

[bospress.net]

It could be done, but there are very few of us out there that would know to use the right paper, right typewriter, sign it correctly for the period, etc. Those of us that have this knowledge, are, I believe so opposed to the idea of putting anything like this out there, that there is not much worry. I could see someone doing it, but not getting it all right and thereby being exposed.

Bill

 

[Rekrab]

You're right. It would have to be the right typer for the date, and paper to match the time period. And all the details, nuances of the writing (and of the typing itself, as a physical act) would have to be right. A good job for a master forger. If it didn't ring true, they would be exposed and it would get harder to pull off the next fake.

 

[bospress.net]

even the flaws in his typewriter could be key. There were certain characters that were damaged and a period ms would have the "correct" flaws...

Bill

 

[Bukfan]

It can be done. The guys who forged Hitler's diaries and Howard Hughes autobiography almost got away with it...

 

[Rekrab]

True, about the defects on the typewriter keys. It becomes like forensics, looking for small clues. A really clever forger could bend and dent the right letters on the typewriter to simulate what Bukowski typed on, but that would be making quite an effort. Most crooks don't work that hard. They count on people being gullible.

 

[mjp]

It can be done. The guys who forged Hitler's diaries and Howard Hughes autobiography almost got away with it...

"Almost" got away with it is the same as saying, "didn't get away with it." Saying they almost got away with it only seems to make the case that it can't be done.

Anyway, I think it would be harder to forge a Bukowski manuscript than a Hitler diary. Consider how many people could authoritatively say that they can identify Hitler's handwriting. Now consider how many people have read Bukowski's work and seen his manuscripts.

I can tell you that more than 20,000 people visit that manuscript section here on the site every month. That doesn't make them experts, but it tells me that there are a shitload of people out there who at least have a feel for how they should look. And read.

The hardest part would be faking the writing. Try it yourself if you doubt that.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Well put, mjp. And your new siggie makes me wonder if you are going to change your username to Jell-o Biafra. Not sure why I say that. You know, just thinkin'.

 

[Bukfan]

"Almost" got away with it is the same as saying, "didn't get away with it." Saying they almost got away with it only seems to make the case that it can't be done.

Anyway, I think it would be harder to forge a Bukowski manuscript than a Hitler diary.

Good point! But there must be some forgeries out there. The problem is you can't prove it since they've gotten away with it.
However, I don't think it's totally out of the question to forge a Buk poem or a short story. It would of course take an expert in forgery to pull it off, and he would need the right paper and the right typewriter with letters worn in the right places etc. The writings he did on computer would probably be easier to forge. Not that any forgery would be easy to pull off...

 

[mjp]

...your new siggie makes me wonder if you are going to change your username to Jell-o Biafra.

It's an Iggy quote from a Michigan show where bikers were pelting them with crap (it was kind of a local sport in Detroit in those days to go throw stuff at the Stooges). The show is on a record called Metallic K.O. I think Iggy is funny on the record, but some people find it disturbing.

We're the hardest working band in the business...I don't care if we're the best.

Our next selection tonight for all you Hebrew ladies in the audience is entitled, "Rich Bitch."

Well, well ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your kind indulgence. And for this evenings next selection I would be proud to present a song that was co-written by my mother, entitled, "I got my cock in my pocket." A-one, two, fuck you pricks!

It'll all be over soon.

Who wants this gen-u-ine cock belt - you want that honey?

Let's get a towel for the egg yolk...I don't want to be caught with yolk on my face.

 

[Rekrab]

The hardest part would be to make the text feel right. The physical part of it is possible, with extreme attention to detail. But making it live in the reader's brain, creating the presence of the author -- that would be the toughest part. The master forger Mark Hoffman, best known for his Mormon forgeries and related bombings, pulled off a bunch of literary fakes including a poem supposedly by Emily Dickinson, that he sold to major libraries and universities. The experts bought not only his ink on paper, but his words. He could channel the subject, whoever it was, and create a likeness of their voice, their personality, and at the same time get their handwriting dead on, effortlessly, no pooled ink on letters. The guy is a genius.

 

[roni]

(the contributors of the first CP-book already know it, a lot others here do too, for the rest)
here's just to give you a glimpse, what 'excessive signing' can do to a man:



these were in a pack of 100 [!] identical sheets of paper in a drawer of MM.
It was an add to announce the 'Big White Book'.
No need to ensure you, that All of these crazy signatures are legit, all right.

 

[Rekrab]

That's what I call the spazz out factor. If you sign 100 times in one sitting, a few are going to be complete spazz outs, wild and illegible, looking nothing like your normal signature.

 

[mjp]

But how old/sick was he when he signed those? He couldn't say 'no' to Montfort, no matter what the circumstances were...

 

[roni]

[...] how old [...] He couldn't say 'no' to Montfort, [...]

from what I've seen there, he didn't say 'NO' to Montfort at ANY time/age.

Even back in the 70s, just after they've met, MM was collecting Everything Bukowski, he could get his hands on.
Sometimes I got the impression, Hank signed nearly every single item of MM. Even some cheap trading copies of translated paperbacks (softcovers, pocket-books) had a signing and very often a personal dedication!

And from the little that I know about him - MM was Never after the money. He was Always collecting all these things out of Personal Admiration. There were other people, who got him signing limited editions for less respectable purposes. And reading some colophones makes me think, he had to sign about 100 a day before too...

 

[mjp]

And from the little that I know about him - MM was Never after the money.

He may not have been after the money, but I think he was after the value. One of the things I found odd when I met him was that he repeated a few times during our conversation, "His books are worthless unless they are signed." To me that seemed to dismiss or denigrate any intrinsic or literary value and only consider monetary value.

I kind of believe that anyone who collects valuable books, even if they love the author(s), thinks, at some point, about their future value. If you never intended to sell them you wouldn't care about their value at all or about obtaining the rarest, most valuable copy or insuring them or keeping them in pristine condition...

I mean, what do I know, anyway. But that seems obvious and logical. There's no other reason to give a shit about a lettered versus a numbered copy, for instance, or to try to have every book you own signed by the author.

I'm not saying that the reason Montfort built his collection was to sell it. But...you know...he did sell it. But that's what every collector does, unless they die unexpectedly or give the collection away.

 

[roni]

I think you are right in Many points here.
Definitely.

Just let me point to some things, where you may be not:

I (for example) don't buy Buk-collectibles because of the money (or value) they might have, when I'd try to sell them sometime - because the few I dare to buy will Never be sold (by me). Not even in the worst of economical crises. One of the few things I've learend is, that a good sale may pay the groceries for some time - but after they're eaten up, you're left with nothing. [of course MM wasn't left with nothing after selling his collection and he obviously kept some of the most personal items anyway.]

and yes, I too think about the (future) 'value' of my book with that painting - and will feel very good, if someday someone would offer me 5000.- or even 10,000.- for it. Still I wouldn't sell. Tenthousand are made very fast sometimes - and equally as fast they are lost. But a Bukowski-painting you can only lose once. So, the thinking about its 'value' is more a theoretical one, a sort of satisfaction. But not necessarily an attempt to sell one day. [I know at least ONE case, where it isn't, you see.]


signed copies surely ARE adding to the value - but sometimes they don't do this for the market but only for the owner. That's why I always prefer an author to sign me a copy with some personal words dedicated to me personally. If I'd intend to sell them, I think a 'plain' signature would be of more worth. (except I'd be a John Webb or Frances Smith of course.)



... on saying: "His books are worthless unless they are signed." - I kinda can see him stating this, but I do definitely NOT see him believing it:

He was such a Hank-fan, even in his last months.
I really think he was obsessed.

In July (just 2 or 3 months before his death) he literally [!] said to me, while we were sitting in his kitchen: "I think Hank was impeccable. He Never talked shit. He was the Smartest and Best. He was unbelievable. He Always helped me." (mediocre translation by me.)

And I'd like to add - these were nearly the Only positive words he had to say during that weekend. [except - and I say this with a certain pride - after he was complaining (again) about all the assholes and suckers and stupid people in the world and I said, I could be one of those, he just said: "If you were, I'd have recognized by now."]

 

[nervas]

It's an Iggy quote from a Michigan show where bikers were pelting them with crap (it was kind of a local sport in Detroit in those days to go throw stuff at the Stooges).

Just had to say that listening to "Metallic K.O." is one of my favorite things to do, any time, any place! Iggy was on fire that night, and as you have said, especially his banter between and during songs!

 

[mjp]

... on saying: "His books are worthless unless they are signed." - I kinda can see him stating this, but I do definitely NOT see him believing it:

Yes, hard to say. He wasn't a particularly enthusiastic or positive guy, at least that day, so maybe some of his comments were just made out of weariness. As I re-read my post about him it comes across more negative than I meant it.

 

[Rekrab]

Maybe it's because I'm often hard up for money and have had to sell my favorite books, but I'm at the point where the text is what matters to me. I'm happy just to have reading copies of all of the Bukowski books. One signed book by an author I admire takes care of that aspect of it for me. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I hadn't been in so many tight money times throughout my life, if I'd have had the luxury of just collecting without having to consider selling off stuff I like.