Greta Thunberg

[roni]

Is Greta Thunberg an object of discussion at all in America?
I'm asking because in Europe she definitely is and I was wondering, since no one had brought her up here so far.

 

[hoochmonkey9]

I follow her on Twitter.

She is making a lot of old white dudes in suits angry, so she must be doing something right.

 

[mjp]

I've never heard of her, but then very little that happens outside of the U.S. becomes a topic of discussion here. We, as a country, don't really care about anyone but ourselves. But there are young people here trying to get the same message across (no one here talks about them either, for what it's worth).

I was surprised to learn recently that almost half of Americans live in counties that are directly on an ocean shoreline. But I'm pretty sure that when half of all Americans are living in boats and it's like Waterworld out there, the old white dudes in suits in this country will still be saying that humans play no role in climate change.

I think only the most profoundly stupid among them really believe that, but reducing emissions cuts in to profits, and the first rule of being an old white dude in a suit is don't upset the shareholders.

 

[roni]

Here's a video of her first public speech. That was at the "UN Climate Change COP24 Conference" in December last year:

"Our civilization is being sacrificed for the opportunity of a very small number of people to continue making enormous amounts of money. Our biosphere is being sacrificed so that rich people in countries like mine can live in luxury."

"You say you love your children above all else, and yet you are stealing their future in front of their very eyes."

"We have not come here to beg world leaders to care. You have ignored us in the past and you will ignore us again. We have run out of excuses and we are running out of time."
(this girl sure takes no prisoners)


(her next groundbreaking speech had been at the "World Economic Forum" in Davos in January this year. Davos everybody!
I may post a link later.)

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sorry, I know this is sideways, but hopefully you'll find this a little funny. I got hired by a big bank and was told to report to the office at 9am and call Gertha Crumpler to let me in. So I'm sitting there waiting for what I expected would be a rather large white woman with a German accent, probably in her fifties. Nope, a black woman in her fifties who had a son who was a NFL star named Alge (a very old Southern name). One of the most lovely individuals I have ever had the priviledge to meet

 

[roni]

Now even Americanos can't ignore her easily anymore, since she just made it to the cover of TIME-magazine:

 

[roni]

just sayin ...

 

[d gray]

amazing person! and 16 years old?

almost gives me hope for humanity...

 

[roni]

Yesterday was another worldwide-demo for the cause of saving the planet.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/24/...udents-protest-climate-change-intl/index.html

Been there, done that:

the yellow side of my sign says: "Destroying Our Planet? - Go Ahead!" [yes, this is irony]
the white side is a generalised version of Greta Thunbergs own infamous sign "Skolstrejk för Klimatet": "Totalstrejk för Future"

 

[d gray]

yeah yeah, save the planet and all that but i bet she's a real pain in the ass at home...

 

[roni]

now THAT is one statement, ain't it?

 

[roni]

... but i bet she's a real pain in the ass at home...

sure she is.
Rumour has it, a few years ago she even convinced her mother to give up the international leg of her career as an opera-singer because flying on a plane is destroying the planet.

Still I love her.
She started all alone on her first day, because she couldn't find One single schoolmate with guts to join.
She sat there on her own with her simple selfpainted now famous sign and didn't care.
Now, she has started a movement around the globe.

Maybe I'm just a romantic, for when I was in the No-Nukes-movement as a teenager in the mid-80s, we didn't have the slightest chance to be heared, no matter how good our arguments or how many we were. We've even been criminalized by our own gouvernment for trying to save the planet.

I'm quite aware, that this movement will not change the world or how things work.
I know that "humanity never had it - from the beginning".

But I do love the power and courage of those young people and I am supporting them, not so much because I believe, they'd change a thing, but out of pure empathy and sympathy.

They may not be able to save the world, but some of them may be able to save their souls through this engagement. Who knows?
(I do believe in carma.)

And of course:
THEY'RE in GREAT COMPANY:

just sayn.

 

[roni]

I've never heard of her, but then very little that happens outside of the U.S. becomes a topic of discussion here.

Now she finally has arrived, not only mentally but as a physical entity, prominently advertised by the UNITED NATIONS.

https://time.com/5665835/greta-thunberg-united-nations-protest/

Still I'm not sure, what impact this has (or does not have) in the US.

We Europeans tend to not really "get" what is going on in the US, and the one thing I've learned is that my own imagination does usually not copy with the facts.
So, I do mean this as a real (not as a rhethoric) question:
Has Greta and the movement "arrived" in the US by now? Is Greta known as a person?

 

[mjp]

Has Greta and the movement "arrived" in the US by now? Is Greta known as a person?

No.

I mean, you know how it is. If you want to find out about something, you find out about it. If someone here is interested in environmental news, they probably know her. But for anyone else, no. Not in mainstream news.

If you believe Chairman Mao (and who doesn't, right?), this form of gentle protest - marching down the streets waving flags and banners, "demanding" things - it doesn't ever change anything.

I'm not a Maoist, or any other kind of ist, but I'm afraid I'd have to agree. Just in what I've seen in my life and what I've read about other people's lives. You have to change laws (or regimes) to really change anything. And even then, even if you can do that, things don't really change much. We've had "civil rights" laws here for half a century, but there is no actual racial equality anywhere in the country.

So if this country doesn't care about the rights of human beings, the idea that we will ever care about the environment is kind of far-fetched. And I mean that as a country, as a whole. Like I said, if you're interested, if you want environmentalism to be your world here in the U.S., you can certainly find your people and live in that world.

But no one else will ever hear you. If they do hear you, they won't give a shit.

 

[roni]

they won't give a shit.

I'm with you absolutely.
THERE WILL NEVER BE ANY FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE WITH HUMANITY.
(see "Dinosauria, We" which is more True than anything)
My reason for supporting this movement so much is an other.
I'll tell at the end of this post.

this form of gentle protest

THIS may be one of the first things, that differs Europe from the US:

To NOT go to school (which is against the LAW in most [or all] European countries) is NOT considered a "gentle protest" here.

This was a SCANDAL.
Most adults tried to shrinken the impact by claiming this was merely just "skipping"; most still do.

The point is - and it was important for the movement (in Europe that is) - a massive breaking against rules that had been believed to be sure and unbreakable.

That's what connects This form of protest to my personal heroes of CIVIL-DISOBEDIENCE and NON-COOPERATION, Thoreau, King, Ghandi, etc.

[on a sidenote: When I was in my last year of highschool (in Germany it was named "Kollegstufe") we had to write a paper to proof we're able to go to a university (called "Facharbeit") and I was the only one who came up to the teacher with a topic on my own (all the others took ideas from a premade list), which was: "Martin Luther King's concept of non-violent resistance". So, I do know a little about the idea.]

You have to change laws (or regimes) to really change anything

True. Absolutely.

And even then, even if you can do that, things don't really change much.

True too. Unfortunately. And I know it.
Any person with the slightest information about history knows this.

If they do hear you, they won't give a shit.

Yes, You're right. THEY WON'T.

I still am aware, that "THEY" don't give shit about us, but that's not the reason, why I became engaged in this movement.
I have TWO reasons:

1st:
End of January this year I was unintentionally led to Greta's speech at the "World Economic Forum" in Davos and watched the video of her speech there.

I WAS IMPRESSED and HOOKED forever.

There was this 16-yearold being invited by these rich people (presumably intended to tell them some sweet candy) - accusing all of them to arrive by private-jets, saying that despite everyone at this meeting expects to hear messages of hope, that there is no hope if we go on like before.

See this speech of hers at Davos (or at least the second half) and then try NOT to be moved!

which leads me to:

2nd:
My own generation (as well as the generation following me and dozens of generations before mine) is RESPONSIBLE.

We simply are NOT in the position to argue against the demands of these young people.
We simply are NOT entiteled to mock them or fight them or act self-assured.
This is not the position we are in. WE have ruined it for them.

It is US, who ARE in charge.

We can not make this undone, but the least decent thing we can do is admit that we have failed, and appologize, and do the damn very best we can, to clean the mess we have made.


.

 

[d gray]

the planet is doomed. there's no way around it. it's just a matter of when and how. everything that lives has to
die at some point anyways.

i daydream sometimes about being able to flash forward in 50 or 100 year increments to see the state of the planet.

i have guilt about throwing a - now 12 year old - son into this mess.

 

[mjp]

There was this 16-yearold being invited by these rich people (presumably intended to tell them some sweet candy) - accusing all of them to arrive by private-jets, saying that despite everyone at this meeting expects to hear messages of hope, that there is no hope if we go on like before.

Yes, I can see the appeal of that kind of punk rock message.

Martin Luther King's concept of non-violent resistance

And you see what it got him.

Nonviolence is met with violence here (and in most other places. let's be honest). Nonviolence is only effective if you have a large political force behind the change that you're trying to bring about nonviolently. I'm afraid the people concerned with the environment are not a large political force. Anywhere. And unfortunately for an environmental agenda to have any effect it has to be adopted by most countries. Not just the rich or powerful ones. Or one rich and powerful one.


WARNING, blah blah blah ahead. You've heard it all before, feel free to skip to the next track.


The punk rock attitude of rubbing the ruling classes shit in their face is gratifying but ineffective. I'm sure many of us know this from personal experience. The punk rock attitude is an immature attitude. Not because it's stupid or wrong, but because it's generally ignited in someone when they get to the age that they start noticing the injustice all around them. When you become aware of that as a young person, you usually react in an alarmist way, screaming FIRE! in the ear of anyone who will listen.

What you don't realize when you're a young punk is most people already know the things that you believe you're the first person to discover and be angry about. Most people already know there's inequality and horror and awfulness under every rock. Their generation discovered the same thing. Then they tried to change it and they failed. Just like the generation before them, and the generation before them.

Carol and I watched an old documentary about Billie Jean King last night, and a lot of it was about everything she did to advance the idea of equal rights for women (she was working for equal rights for women athletes, but she was thinking about all women). And they were hailing her for all of her important work. And you can say the same for Martin Luther King and his followers and the civil rights movement and laws that came from that. What a great advancement they were. Then I look around and think, what a fucking joke all of it is. Women and non-white people do not have equality in this country any rich or powerful country. None. Nowhere on the face of this huge earth.

That's not cynicism, it's reality. And when the last white man takes his final breath, someone else will be in charge, and they will be in the process of oppressing and exploiting everyone who doesn't look like them. It's human nature, and human nature won't change until we evolve into whatever comes after humans.

The story of Sisyphus is 1,500 years old. Greta is Sisyphus, she just doesn't know it yet.

 

[roni]

Their generation discovered the same thing. Then they tried to change it and they failed. Just like the generation before them

Absolutely true. I know it just the same as you.

and they will be in the process of oppressing and exploiting everyone who doesn't look like them.

Yes. It's always been like that and always will.

human nature won't change until we evolve into whatever comes after humans.

You're right again. See again "Dinosauria We".

Still I'm supporting those kids. They're great.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

the planet is doomed. there's no way around it. it's just a matter of when and how. everything that lives has to
die at some point anyways.

i daydream sometimes about being able to flash forward in 50 or 100 year increments to see the state of the planet.

i have guilt about throwing a - now 12 year old - son into this mess.

Look man, I'm an environmental scientist. Have been for nearly 25 years. Things aren't all that good but they aren't all that bad. At least in the context of your son's lifetime. Count me among those who feel as if we should do all we can to combat it, but we're also likely dealing with a natural warming cycle. I can't say that this is my area of expertise, although I've worked in related areas. I also am cognizant of some of the evidence - I'm on board with doing something about it, even if it doesn't help much. I can't sit here and do nothing. Al Gore destroyed the issue when he wrote a book about it. Suddenly, conservatives, upon which the word conservation is derived, flipped. For some reason, he didn't see that coming.

Put another way, there may not be much we can do - keep in mind that this planet has gone through climate extremes before homo erectus or even our ancestors were present. It's difficult for me to believe that the last 200 years of industrial activity is fully responsible for what we are seeing. It's also very difficult for me to hear folks on the other side of the aisle dismiss it. Do everything you can and accept what is. That's my position. Am I'm a Massachusetts liberal.

Hang in there.

 

[d gray]

thanks for that - countering my negativity - blame my parents!

i haven't thrown in the towel.

 

[mjp]

Things [...] aren't all that bad. At least in the context of your son's lifetime.

You say that, but the weather has changed a lot in our lifetimes. From what I understand there's a tipping point after which things are going to get...complicated for people in the coastal areas all over the world. Apparently we're only a few degrees away from that tipping point? I'm not a climate scientist either. Though I play one on TV.

I think believers and deniers can all agree that the weather is changing and things are going to be very different, whether it's for your kids or your grandchildren (or great grandchildren). I have a feeling that who was right and who was wrong about why it happened won't really matter to them.

 

[Andreas]

keep in mind that this planet has gone through climate extremes before homo erectus or even our ancestors were present

I think people worry about the speed of the changes. If you are 50+ or 40+ you can see the changes, and you don't have to look far away to see them.
I live in a temperate zone. No earthquakes, no hurricanes, no floods. But the weather and the environment have changed a lot since I was a kid. Snow in winter was usual, sometimes a lot of snow. Now there is almost no snow at all. We have a sleigh in the basement, it looks like a relic of bygone times. Forty years ago winter was so cold that sometimes the bay was frozen, and I remember one year when the ice was so thick that my father drove his car across it to the other side.
Gnats and yellowjackets have almost disappeared. That's nice. I don't want to complain about that. But birds and trees and flowers have also disappeared. And that's not nice.

 

[roni]

this planet has gone through climate extremes before homo erectus

the speed of the changes

Yes, the speed in which climate is changing has not been seen before. This is one major factor.

And yes, climate extremes have been on Earth before (almost all the time - from a certain perspective, our own time is a climate-extreme, but it is one, that suits us well).
In the Cambrium, the CO2 in the atmosphere has been 15-20 times higher than now, and that's fine if you're a Trilobite. For a human being not so much.

There's a reason, this planet has seen several mass-extinctions (not only the famous dinosaur-incident) and even though we don't have the whole patterns or explanations for them (and single events like comet-impact have been adding), it is agreed that climate changes have been playing a major role each time.

Not that I would miss the human race on this surface. But being one of those, who're suffering and giving their lifes during the process isn't a sexy option for anyone.

 

[Black Swan]

I really get it and admire the activists who are working for causes such as the climate change, the animals rights, the well being of every single human on the earth and that we need to listen carefully. I subscribe to many such causes and try to help here and there. If it weren't for them, nothing would move and we'd be sitting in the dark chewing on old memories and listening to our old tapes of Donovan (who I adore btw).
I admire their dedication and passion but there is something in me that can hear the parents talking through her, the ones that are using a child as a porte parole. I am sure that the subject will become her.
It is lovely but also a teeny weeny disturbing...
A little like putting lipstick on little Miss Sunshine.
You can hit me now! ?

 

[Gallagher]

Well,..this is probably my vermented masculinity bubbling, but.. I don't really feel cool about a 15 year old kid; from white suburban well-to-do upper-middle-class acting family,..telling me how the world functions. Like I said: "Blame it on my roots." 'Protesters', in general,... ? I dig the folks who go out,.. create 'a better way',.. than, are cool enough to share their 'do-ings'. Germany, in the moment, due to its wealth, in the moment; has the 'luxery'(?), of following such,...'pied-pipers'(?). Protest, not Democratic debate, decides much of the political debate. ...the power of media..

. . . . . . . . .

Helen and Scott Nearing. As an Economist, in the 1930's, working at the U. of Penn; Scott Nearing was fired, for preaching "..socialistic, self-sufficient theory." Out of work, he said: "I wonder if my theory would work?.!" Then went about.....living it. Later he wrote the book: 'Living the Good Life'. Very inspiring. An economic system,,..theory, that he TRIED, lived,...and shared. Economically and Enviromental sound,...to this day. And,..they 'lived it',.their entire life.. until his 'end'. ...at 101. I dig the guys,..folks. with the scars and tears and dirty finger nails and calouses and crooked smiles. Their 'insights and wisdoms'. I trust them, as crazy as that maybe.

For me, 'the Successfull folks', have survived,.. lots of failures. And aren't ashamed 'bout it.

 

[roni]

A little like putting lipstick on little Miss Sunshine.

Isn't it more like refusing to wear lipstick when everybody around you expects you to do so in order to look neat and pretty?

 

[Black Swan]

Sorry Roni, that is not my point. The point that I was trying to make is that you can suspect that she is coached . The message, I get, and that she is a very wonderful little girl I get.
It is a lot nicer to get excited by a new wave of freshness than Al Gore for exemple. And I could be wrong. Maybe she was truly inspired.
What is more important is that she inspires the world.

 

[Hosh]

What I see, no matter what the issue, is a people rejecting any info (true or false) that contradicts their stance. And that means facts don't matter...or don't matter more that how someone feels. That's what's terrifying...just how easy it is for most people to twist and contort things to fit their preconceived notions.

Some people probably felt lukewarm, or maybe even slightly positive about the environment before Gore started preaching. Instead of the so-called goal of raising awareness, it polarized the issue to the point of cultural warfare. Both sides dug in and took to hating each other over yet another thing.

So until people can accurately separate facts from pre-gamed, agenda-supporting fiction, we're fucked. And with so many folks working diligently to muddy the waters and keep that from happening...cutting through to even a measure of truth is really goddamned hard.

Which means we're fucked.

Which means we each do our best to live our lives as well as we can, and try to be happy, and maybe even look for the humanity in everyone.

I know, I know...it'll never work.

 

[zobraks]

They write about Greta in Serbia:

 

[Andreas]

I only got the headline:
Greta pukes all over american politicians