The Charles Bukowski Tributes - number 1

bospress.net

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
I can hand feed 1200 impressions an hour on my C&P, which is the same press that the Webbs used for the Bukowski books. So, assuming that Jon & Lou were feeding at the same speed, then it would take 3 hours of actual feeding of each page, which is quite a workout. 100 pages, would be 300 hours of feeding. Add to that at least a couple hours to typeset and then breakdown and redistribute a page and you are at about 5 hours per page (one side). The total that it would take ME to do a job like this, without even getting into the binding would be about 500 hours. At 40 hours a week, that is still about 12 weeks. It would take at least 12 weeks for me to collate and bind these like they did.

So, if I had no day job and just did a book like Crucifix, it would take be 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for about 6 months.

3100 copies of anything is quite a task. Let alone a 100 page letterpress printed book.

Bill
 
Rekrab

Rekrab

Usually wrong.
Bill, that's an interesting estimate of the amount of work involved in printing a Loujon Press book. With the two of them, maybe they could do a book in 3 months. Add to the printing and binding all the correspondence, editing, wrapping and shipping orders, buying paper and ink. They must have worked like slaves.
 
bospress.net

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The binding goes twice as fast with two people, but not the printing.

Plus, I get the idea that the Webbs did not have a TON of type so they would set a page or two, print them, break them down and set the next pages.

If they had a linecaster then Jon could have set the whole book in a couple days and then they could have printed them taking turns. Very few people can feed paper for three hours straight, let alone for weeks on end. I have done it a few times, but it is VERY tough. Feeding paper is a small motion, but after a while, it starts to hurt. Walking up a flight of stairs is not tough, but doing a Stairmaster for three hours would be very tough.

My understanding was that Lou sold art during the day and jon set type. Then they printed it later that night.

Still, 3100 sets x 50 sheets of paper is 16,000 sheets. That is a lot of paper just to store.

I just finished 150 hardback books. Doing 150 books, there is no small step that does not take a LOT of time. Even something simple like gluing the edge of the text block for the book. For the Webbs, it may take them 2 minutes per book, but for 3,100 books, that comes out to 103 hours, which is almost 13 eight hour days.

...and that is only one step out of dozens of steps. I cannot express how much work it would be to do 3,100 handmade books. Even with all of the conveniences that are out there, it would be a monumental task that would consume your life for a long time.

Bill
 
bospress.net

bospress.net

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Printers used to just be people that printed. To print NOW using 15th century technology, you have to be a bit "off."

A good friend of mine just about left his pointer and middle fingers in his press yesterday. He called me after leaving the emergency room. Luckily the press was a 7x11 and luckily it was foot treadled. It only crushed two fingers. On my slightly larger and motorized press, I would have left them in the press. Getting your fingers in my press means losing them.

It is much easier and saner to push "print" on your computer. No one has ever lost fingers using a laser or ink-jet printer.

Bill
 
Rekrab

Rekrab

Usually wrong.
Two fingers ... I'm thinking my rubber type, hand-cranked rotary press is the way to go. The results are crude, but I'll never loose as much as a finger nail with it. Although there are probably heavier, metal type presses that don't have a mechanized motion, that work by pulling a lever, one page at a time. Seems I've seen presses like that. You wouldn't lose fingers on something like that, but it would be slow printing.
 
mjp

mjp

Founding member
Rekrab said:
metal type presses that don't have a mechanized motion, that work by pulling a lever...You wouldn't lose fingers on something like that
Click to expand...
You would be less likely to, but they work the same way the big presses do, so there are definitely what they call "crush points."

The greater risk with a tabletop press is doing real damage to the tendons in your elbows and wrists. Both Bill and I have painful personal experience with that.
 
bospress.net

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
My wrist required painful surgery following the printing of Bukowski's "as Buddha smiles". I have pictures of my wrist somewhere, but picture a nasty scar that looked like I opened my wrist and the whole arm from my elbow to wrist varied from purple to blue.

Bill
 
LickTheStar

LickTheStar

Sad Flower in the Sand
Don't tell me that, Bill... That kind of thing is what I looking at for my first full project... Ah well, I don't need BOTH wrists.
 
mjp

mjp

Founding member
Bill's did his wrists in, I killed my elbow. Torn ligaments in one of your elbows is...well...inconvenient. It took six months for the pain to stop, and another three months before I could fully use my arm again. All that was for only 50 copies of a poem. Those tabletop presses are cute, and they do work, but I wouldn't recommend them to anyone.
 
Purple Stickpin

Purple Stickpin

Having read all this it sounds like the major difference is that using a bigger press you'll risk losing fingers and using a smaller table-top version you'll risk loss of limb use for a considerable period of time. While losing fingers is fairly drastic, at least you'll be able to lift your arm to whack off; the added benefit being that the loss of fingers will make it feel like a stranger doing it, sort of a permanent corollary to the "other hand syndrome."
 
S

Stavrogin

Stickpin - you filthy degenerate, I was politely going to keep quiet but loss of such skills seems tragically apparent. "Printer's curse" is a malady I'd find unendurable. Perhaps that's why most printers are faithfully married.:)
 
bospress.net

bospress.net

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Purple Stickpin said:
Having read all this it sounds like the major difference is that using a bigger press you'll risk losing fingers and using a smaller table-top version you'll risk loss of limb use for a considerable period of time.
Click to expand...

I have hand fed at least 50,000 sheets of paper with my press with no problem. With the bigger press there is always the risk of injury. With the smaller press, it is not a risk, but a guarantee; if you are going to do a lot of printing with a little press, be prepared for pain. It will be your elbow or your wrist. These little tabletop presses, like Kelseys, were really made for kids and for churches to print their weekly mass sheets, etc.. They were not meant to print thousands of pieces of cardstock with deep impression.

Bill
 
Rekrab

Rekrab

Usually wrong.
You guys are making me rethink my plan to move from a rubber-type toy press to a bigger metal-type press. So far I have experienced no paint after printing over a hundred sheets (2 poems, 55 copies each). The actual printing on my rotary press is easy, just feed in a sheet and turn the crank. There's no real work to it, no stress on joints or muscles. My shoulder is still recovering, however, from rebuilding a section of my fence followed by rebuilding my front porch last summer.
 
bospress.net

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David,
The problem with the Kelseys, besides the guarantee of injury is that they are in short supply. There has been a run on them in the last couple years. I bought mine for $500 complete and it even included type, quoins, furniture, and shipping from Indiana. I sold it for $500 a year or two later. They are now selling for $1500. They are great presses for people without much space for a large press and because of this, they are very tough to find. Many copies on ebay are damaged beyond repair or missing parts that are irreplaceable. A 5x8 Kelsey (like I had) in good shape and complete sells for over $1000 any day of the week. You could get a Chandler & Price 8x10, like I have for a couple hundred dollars, but it weighs 1200 lbs and takes up a lot of space.

The smaller the press, the more expensive. The only exception is the Vandercooks. They are flat bed presses and artists LOVE them. They usually sell for $6000. I saw a premium one sell for $10,000 last month (it was in Oregon) and the winning bidder was in Australia, so add to that at least a few thousand in shipping and taxes....

If anyone has a Vandercook SP-15 or Universal III, or knows anyone that wants to donate one t a good cause (me), I'll trade it for one of every release that I do, the rarest state of the release for LIFE (or $100 a month for 6 years). I want one bad and can make one sing....

Bill
 
mjp

mjp

Founding member
I always wanted a proof press but never had a place to park one. There was a great little one for sale in San Pedro when I lived down there...I think the model was called Pony (?), but I can't find any info online. It was smaller than a typical Vandercook and the guy only wanted $250 for it. But I just didn't have a spot.

Once you place things like that it's best not to have to move them...


Historical_Society.adj.jpg
 
Rekrab

Rekrab

Usually wrong.
Bill, I had no idea you could get a C&P that cheap. Where to park it and dealing with the weight would make me think twice about buying one, plus that finger loss thing. But still...tempting.
 
bospress.net

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
If you are patient, you can sometimes get one free. Hauling is another issue. If you get a press free, pay $500 to get it delivered and then realize that it is trashed, you are out big time.

Still, a Pearl would be an ideal press for someone that wants a larger press with a small footprint. They are 7x11's, I believe. They are very tall and skinny. They probably weigh 800 lbs, so three people could move one without too much trouble. Very cool presses. They look like an Art Deco version of my press. Still, as they are more easily moved and installed in an artist's loft, they are probably pricier.

Bill
 
DirtyJersey13

DirtyJersey13

The Cruelty of Loveless Love
All this talk of presses and Webb reminds me of the poem in You Get So Alone... about Webb in which Bukowski ends with the line "That Crazy son of a bitch, he was a lyric poem himself". I'm starting to think some of you may be some crazy SOB's as well, in some cases missing a finger or two. I'll leave the printing to you guys.
 
chronic

chronic

old and in the way
Yep, a guy can get mighty hungry setting type.

Lead MacNuggets anyone? Chase 'em with a nice cold glass of ink.
 
bospress.net

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
The glue is very stable and not off-gassing. The lead is another issue. I set pieces of type between my lips while I set type (I could use three hands).

I have been checked for lead and it is all cool. I know that it is not a good idea to do this, but it is habit.

Bill
 
Rekrab

Rekrab

Usually wrong.
bospress.net said:
If you are patient, you can sometimes get one free. Hauling is another issue. If you get a press free, pay $500 to get it delivered and then realize that it is trashed, you are out big time.

Still, a Pearl would be an ideal press for someone that wants a larger press with a small footprint. They are 7x11's, I believe. They are very tall and skinny. They probably weigh 800 lbs, so three people could move one without too much trouble. Very cool presses. They look like an Art Deco version of my press. Still, as they are more easily moved and installed in an artist's loft, they are probably pricier.
Click to expand...

Only 800 lbs? How much does your C&P weigh? I wonder if that extreme weight is really needed to get a good impression. In the old days everything was overbuilt, and "made to last." Maybe weight was a selling point on new presses: the heavier, the better?
 
mjp

mjp

Founding member
The reason they weigh so much is the same reason the hand operated models will cripple you - a lot of leverage/pressure is required to print evenly across a large block of text. The mechanization of the platen presses (the giant flywheels and the frame necessary to support them) created the weight.

But even a 5x7 tabletop Kelsey weighs 90 pounds...iron is heavy, as all those 70s bands told us.
 
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