What did Ginsberg make of Bukowski's writing?

Olaf

Olaf

I know Bukowski didn't really like the whole BEAT thing per se. He tended to distance himself quite aggressively from their hypster antics and group ethic. I was juts wondering if anyone had access to any 'essay' or 'article' with Allen Ginsberg making direct comments about Bukowski or vice versa...they seem surprisingly comparable yet millions of miles apart poetically.

I read somewhere that Ginsberg couldn't relate to Bukowskis work....Any thoughts or links you have on this people would be appreicated?
 
Olaf

Olaf

No one have any information on this topic?

Did Bukowski and Ginsberg ever meet? I'm sure I read something about them reading at the same place or attending some thing together....

Any information would be appreicated.

Personally: Ginsberg is overrated. A sign post for the beat era. A commodity poet. Like most poets....very interesting with words...but full of holes when living...
 
cirerita

cirerita

Founding member
B wrote at least one review of Ginsberg work. I think it was published in Ole. He used to downplay Ginsberg stature as a poet, but strangely enough he praised him in "A Rambling Essay..."

And he used to misspell his name; Ginsburg was his favourite one :D
 
bospress.net

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
HI,
There is an essay on Allen in "San Francisco Book Review #21" published in 1971. I have it here. I could always try to scan it...

Bill
 
Bukfan

Bukfan

"The law is wrong; I am right"
Olaf said:
Did Bukowski and Ginsberg ever meet? I'm sure I read something about them reading at the same place or attending some thing together.
Click to expand...

According to Sounes Buk bio they met at a party after a benefit reading in Santa Cruz. The meeting takes up 2 pages in the bio (page 140-141). The source notes says the description of the meeting is based on Sounes correspondence with Ginsberg and on an article in the Berkely Barb...
 
Olaf

Olaf

Bukfan said:
According to Sounes Buk bio they met at a party after a benefit reading in Santa Cruz. The meeting takes up 2 pages in the bio (page 140-141). The source notes says the description of the meeting is based on Sounes correspondence with Ginsberg and on an article in the Berkely Barb...
Click to expand...

You couldn't give a rough transcription of what those two pages reveal, could you Bukfan? I don't have the book and it would be good to see some words re this topic.

Of course, only if you can be bothered...cheers, Olaf. :)
 
skbruce

skbruce

In A.D. Winans book The Holy Grail: Charles Bukowski and the Second Coming Revolution he details a reading Bukowski and Ginsberg did together with one other poet, I think Ferlingetti(This may be the Santa Cruz reading Bukfan/Sounes refers to, I don't remember). During the reading there is a bomb threat made by phone, so Ginsberg goes out on stage and improvises a poem to let everyone know what's going on. I believe Winans has a quote from Buk saying how much he liked Ginsberg's improvisation, however at the party afterword Buk drunkenly insults Ginsberg(no suprise there). I will look tonight when I get home and see if there is anything about Ginsberg's opinion of Buk. I will post whatever relevant passages I find.
 
ESMoist

ESMoist

A quote from http://www.bukowski.net/poems/int-first.php says:

Kaye: What do you think of homosexual poets?

Bukowski: Homosexuals are delicate and bad poetry is delicate and Ginsberg turned the tables by making homosexual poetry strong poetry, almost manly poetry; but in the long run, the homo will remain the homo and not the poet.

There are other ref to Ginsberg by Hank, but I can't list them all tonight.
 
skbruce

skbruce

Alright I did some checking and I was actually thinking of the same passage in the Sounes bio as bukfan. The only thing we really get from Ginsberg's perspective is this:
"All the poets followed, after the audience left, and Bukowski looked at me and said, surprisingly, 'Ginsberg, you're a good man.' I was a little apprehensive he'd disapprove of me as 'academic' or a four-eyed queer, but he was agreeable and friendly."
As bukfan mentioned, the end notes for this passage state this info was based on correspondance between Sounes and Ginsberg before his death.

Hey is it me or does ESMoist's Avatar look strangely familiar?
 
Bukfan

Bukfan

"The law is wrong; I am right"
Hi, Olaf. the Ginsberg quote skbruce mentions is all we get from Ginsburg. It would have been nice if we had got Ginsbergs opinion on Buk as a poet but we don't. Apart from that Ginsburg describes a scene were Buk is mocking him (surprise!) by saying "Everybody knows that after "Howl" you never wrote anything worth a shit"...
 
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number6horse

number6horse

okyoutwopixiesoutyougo
There are one or two Ginsberg references in "The Night Torn Mad With Footsteps" poems and they are quite respectful and its obvious Buk dug AG.
 
txjack

txjack

In What Matters Most is How Well You Walk Through the Fire,
Buk mentions Ginsberg in the poem "4 Christs," but refers to him
as Ginsbing. There's a part where someone unnamed tells Hank
that "Ginsbing says he doesn't know how to relate to you."
 
reasonknot

reasonknot

Founding member
in a letter from 'reach for the sun' p.32
buk mentions ginsberg wrote him,inviting him to read @1981 in new york.
so either allen or his university girl friend respected buks writing enough to
attempt getting an appearance out of him
 
R

riverrat

reasonknot
i don't relate to ginsberg - a bit too intellectual - he had a message as did bukowski but seems to me the geography between their writing spans a planet - history lies at times and 'time' simply measures the mood of it's readers - as far as that goes...even a stopped clock is right twice a day - ginsberg & bukowski? the clock is still running...

rrat
 
S

SamDusky

Founding member
reasonknot said:
... either allen or his university girl friend respected buks writing enough to attempt getting an appearance out of him
Click to expand...

Am I parsing this above wrong, or are you saying that Ginsburg had a girl friend; and was that a "roll in the hay" type girl friend or Platonic? Because I thought I had it on good authority that he batted for the other team and wasn't a switch-hitter (or something). Yah.

SD
 
cirerita

cirerita

Founding member
Ginsberg has been the most awakening force in American poetry since Walt W.,
Click to expand...
A Rambling...,14

Ginsburg is a complete ninny running up the mare?s ass for the pussy of fame. He throws up a big smokescreen but his soul is the size of one grain of salt and will wash away in the first faint sprinkle
Click to expand...
, Beerspit..., 222.

this is what disgusts me with the Ginsberg/Corso mob. they suck to the human adulation bit and are soon swallowed
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. Screams..., 219

Corso? Ginsberg? maybe I am jealous of the big cats? they?ve got one thing I got ? clarity of style, but they?ve got a little too much the sweet tooth for their own soul (soul-importance) and they suck up a lot of bait.
Click to expand...
Screams..., 245
 
S

SamDusky

Founding member
Wouldn't it look more like it was a mixed bag? (I'll look for quotes where he praises Gins; they're there.)

SD
 
HenryChinaski

HenryChinaski

Founding member
what does it matter? it's all a matter of opinion and trying to get everybody to agree to one thing is like beating a dead horse.
 
R

riverrat

then...we can all agree?
the horse is dead -

henry - the topic is interesting to me - i'd like to know more - ginsberg and i seldom resonate but...well - suffice to say i keep my mind as open as is possible for a man my age...a man having had a frontal lobotomy...(smiles)

damn! i swear i saw that horse move!
somebody shoot the critter!

rrat (in a fun frame of mind)
 
hoochmonkey9

hoochmonkey9

Art should be its own hammer.
Moderator
Founding member
I'm pretty sure that most of the time Ginsberg liked Ginsberg and Bukowski liked Bukowski and sometimes they knew one of them was right in that opinion some of the time.
 
HenryChinaski

HenryChinaski

Founding member
Bukowski probably didn't waste much time sitting around thinking about Ginsbing and his poetry. Ginsberg probably didnt think much about Bukowski either.
 
stimso

stimso

Yeah, Buk does review Ginsberg in an issue of Olé....It's been a while But I recall that he disparages him overall, says he's over-rated but still gives him a few begrudging compliments. One thing he does say is that Ginsberg is an indisputably a trailblazer.

For what it's worth, Billy Childish has a poem in "Poems Without Rhyme (etc...)" where he recounts that upon meeting Ginsberg, the latter referred to him as the "English Bukowski." If true, G was way off base!
 
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stimso

stimso

Something I wrote when the Ole piece was a little fresher in the bean:

"Issue 7 is a "Godzilla" review issue. Bukowski again makes a noteworthy appearance in the form of a review of Ginsberg's Empty Mirror. It's full of left-handed compliments but surprisingly appreciative. Despite the "asshole" image of Bukowski, he gives a fair review, dealing with the poetry and citing both weak and strong lines. All in all, it's honest. Ginsberg is disparaged, but within the context of being an undisputed trailblazer."
 
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