If anyone wants to read a well researched bio on Morrison, I recommend, The Lizard King Was Here, by Mark Opsasnick. It deals with his high school years in Alexandria Virginia. The author interviews classmates and friends of Jim's from that period and you get a very interesting picture of him before rock stardom. In a lot of ways, it's more interesting than later bios, which are usually just all the same hype and myth over and over.
Perception of THE DOORS
- Thread starter homeless mind
- Start date
What about the grade-school friends "” and pre-pubescent school teachers?
How did Mojo play with his blocks in kindergarten?
When the fuck does it end?
At some point, the investigation and information (reporting) becomes cackle.
Not at u, b-ville; but the written stories have to end, and the music, endure...
How did Mojo play with his blocks in kindergarten?
When the fuck does it end?
At some point, the investigation and information (reporting) becomes cackle.
Not at u, b-ville; but the written stories have to end, and the music, endure...
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full disclosure
for CRBSMILE
for CRBSMILE
I've always been intrigued with Morrison the poet. I was wondering how highly regarded was his verse in the early days, pre-doors?
With the Doors, Morrisons lyrics to me have always seemed clumsy. They tend to fit the music quite well but they don't stand alone compared with lyricists like Dylan or Morrissey. There are some obvious examples in Riders On The Storm which though a beautiful song is filled with some absolute lyrical clangers.
Riders on the storm
Riders on the storm
Into this house were born
Into this world were thrown
Like a dog without a bone
An actor out on loan
Riders on the storm
Theres a killer on the road
His brain is squirmin like a toad
Take a long holiday
Let your children play
If ya give this man a ride
Sweet memory will die
Killer on the road, yeah
With the Doors, Morrisons lyrics to me have always seemed clumsy. They tend to fit the music quite well but they don't stand alone compared with lyricists like Dylan or Morrissey. There are some obvious examples in Riders On The Storm which though a beautiful song is filled with some absolute lyrical clangers.
Riders on the storm
Riders on the storm
Into this house were born
Into this world were thrown
Like a dog without a bone
An actor out on loan
Riders on the storm
Theres a killer on the road
His brain is squirmin like a toad
Take a long holiday
Let your children play
If ya give this man a ride
Sweet memory will die
Killer on the road, yeah
Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
There's a book about The Doors, "Light My Fire", written by Ray Manzarek. It a good read, I think. In it, Manzarek attacks Oliver Stone for his Doors film. He also wrtes a lot about his friendship with Jim Morrison, and about Morrison's darker self-destructive side...
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I don't know. I think for some artists, their real art is how (out of the box) they live their lives--the stuff of great stories. Morrison to me is one of those artists. Rimbaud--another. I can't even get halfway through a Season in Hell, but I've plowed through numerous Rimbaud Bios.
Sometimes the artist is just more interesting than their art.
That's a good point. Sometimes the life of an artist can overshadow or bring attention the art. So I humbly agree. With a caveat: if the art doesn't measure up "” it doesn't matter how interesting the story or legend or myth "” it's still trash.
A great bio doesn't mean the art is great. But as for Mojo and Arthur, sure, I can viddy your point. No doubt.
Pax
A great bio doesn't mean the art is great. But as for Mojo and Arthur, sure, I can viddy your point. No doubt.
Pax
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I think, legend has it, Densmore was on the dime for the film as a consultant, or whatever, and Manzarek and Krieger read the script and passed on it. Don't know for sure, sorry, so no flames, please. Or fill in the proper info.
I do remember hearing Manzarek calling Stone, "Evil."
I can understand his POV, as there were some unflattering scenes in the movie, think Thanksgiving at the Morrison's (fly on that wall?). And, well, he lived through it all. First hand.
Also, the "Come on Buick Light My Fire" at the studio scene...(hope I got it right, if not see above apology).
Celluloid = perception = truth to many fans.
So I can see him being pissed off.
But Manzarek's writing, well, I haven't read; won't. I have the music. And when it's over, I turn out the lights...
(BTW: Nice collection Hooch. Way fucking cool. Can I give you my Fedex number,too? Seems like we lost Johnny of Chicago...)
Pax
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Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
Right. He attacks the way Morrison's college film was portrayed (mis-represented) with all the nazi stuff. Stone also altered Doors performance at the Ed Sullivan TV show, where they sang, "Light My Fire". Sullivan made them change the words about getting "higher", but in Stones'film "Morrison the rebel" sings the word "higher" anyway in opposition to Sullivan's guidelines. But actually Doors followed Sullivan's guidelines and deleted the word "higher" from the song.
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I'm going to respectfully disagree with one point. Mojo did sing the word higher on the Ed Sullivan show. I have it on 1/2 inch. He actually screams it in a close-up. Funny as hell, as the tape I have shows Ed (seemingly) pointing his finger at Mojo, kinda wagging it, like the old fuck he was. Again, a very tame word by today's standards.
I think you are thinking of the Stones, who did change a word for Ed. Wasn't it "Let's Spend Some Time Together" in lieu of The Night???
Pax,
homeless mind
I think you are thinking of the Stones, who did change a word for Ed. Wasn't it "Let's Spend Some Time Together" in lieu of The Night???
Pax,
homeless mind
the only good poet
One retreat after another without peace.
this is what one martin esslin has to say in the first chapter of his book on artaud. i believe morrison was somewhat somehow influenced by him.
"...it is by no means easy to say into which of the recognised categories of achievement his contribution falls. He is not a thinker who could be thought of as having produced a coherent body of new knowledge or to have opened up new fields of inquiry; nor was he a doer, a man of action, a hero who has shaped events, influenced the course of history; and while, undoubtedly, he was a poet of great power, it is not his poetry that accounts for his influence. His writings about the theatre have had considerable influence, but his actual work in that sphere is generally acknowledged to have been a failure, so that he must be regarded as an inspiration for the work of others rather than a great director in his own right. In this he resembles those powerful figures who, while not producing anything like a tangible, verifiable system of thought, act as catalysts and stimulators for others by opening up new areas of speculation and directing the atttention towards new modes of seeing - prophets of new visions like Nietzsche of Marshall McLuhan...'
Artaud, I feel, is, above all, an example of another, more mysterious type of personality with major influence and impact: one of those masters who impact arises not so much from what they have achieved and done in concrete, tangible terms, but rather from what they are and what they havesuffered. The influence of powerful figures of this type ultimately derives from the image of themselves they have left behind and which has, somehow, mysteriously, become the encapsulated embodiment, clear, compressed, immediately apprehended, of a whole complex of attitudes, ideas and precepts contained within that image."
"...it is by no means easy to say into which of the recognised categories of achievement his contribution falls. He is not a thinker who could be thought of as having produced a coherent body of new knowledge or to have opened up new fields of inquiry; nor was he a doer, a man of action, a hero who has shaped events, influenced the course of history; and while, undoubtedly, he was a poet of great power, it is not his poetry that accounts for his influence. His writings about the theatre have had considerable influence, but his actual work in that sphere is generally acknowledged to have been a failure, so that he must be regarded as an inspiration for the work of others rather than a great director in his own right. In this he resembles those powerful figures who, while not producing anything like a tangible, verifiable system of thought, act as catalysts and stimulators for others by opening up new areas of speculation and directing the atttention towards new modes of seeing - prophets of new visions like Nietzsche of Marshall McLuhan...'
Artaud, I feel, is, above all, an example of another, more mysterious type of personality with major influence and impact: one of those masters who impact arises not so much from what they have achieved and done in concrete, tangible terms, but rather from what they are and what they havesuffered. The influence of powerful figures of this type ultimately derives from the image of themselves they have left behind and which has, somehow, mysteriously, become the encapsulated embodiment, clear, compressed, immediately apprehended, of a whole complex of attitudes, ideas and precepts contained within that image."
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Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
I see! Perhaps I mix it up with the Stones performance then. Damn memory...:)
Yes, but a dog without a bone is a sad and lonely creature...isn't it?:confused: Agreed, it's a simple and cheesy line. I sat here last night getting nice and high and listened to The Doors. I simply cannot help it- I LOVE THE DOORS! I think many of their popular songs, the ones that still get radio play tend to overshadow some of the really great stuff that you don't hear unless you have the albums.
Peace Frog
Been down so long
The Wasp(Texas Radio and The Big Beat)
When The Musics Over
Build Me A Woman
Gloria
The poetry of Morrison is something I've always wondered about. Much of it was unedited by Morrison, and most is pretty raw. I'm speaking specificaly of the 2 vols. of the Wilderness collection. I've always wondered if he would of put more work into the poems if he had not died.
There is an interesting book- Rimbaud And Morrison, The Rebel As Poet, by Wallace Fowlie. A great look at both poets with some very interesting comparisons. Thanx for the pics Hooch! Very nice indeed!CRB:)
Peace Frog
Been down so long
The Wasp(Texas Radio and The Big Beat)
When The Musics Over
Build Me A Woman
Gloria
The poetry of Morrison is something I've always wondered about. Much of it was unedited by Morrison, and most is pretty raw. I'm speaking specificaly of the 2 vols. of the Wilderness collection. I've always wondered if he would of put more work into the poems if he had not died.
There is an interesting book- Rimbaud And Morrison, The Rebel As Poet, by Wallace Fowlie. A great look at both poets with some very interesting comparisons. Thanx for the pics Hooch! Very nice indeed!CRB:)
TOGP:
Thanks for posting. That's really fascinating.
Especially, "The influence of powerful figures of this type ultimately derives from the image of themselves they have left behind and which has, somehow, mysteriously, become the encapsulated embodiment, clear, compressed, immediately apprehended, of a whole complex of attitudes, ideas and precepts contained within that image."
While I haven't read much Artaud, I have always wanted to do the deep dive. Perhaps it's time.
And isn't fucking cool how one writer can write about another writer(s) "” and we can interpret and form opinions/observations about other writers from that?
Again, thanks for sharing. Methinks I've got some reading/homework to do.
I read the books, when they came out, and never read them again. I'll never forget how excited I was, and how disappointed I was.
Therein lies a good question: where does poetry start/stop and lyrics begin? I think Bob (Dylan) is the only one who ever really blurred the lines and made it work.
But back to "Wilderness." I put 'em down; then, put on a Doors' album, Morrison Hotel (or the like), poured a stiff drink, and forgot about them "” and remembered. To this day, I don't even know where they are. But my cds are at my fingertips.
And as for the line, Like A Dog Without A Bone, it gets followed by the equally mundane, An Actor Out On Loan...
Hmmm. Not quite what one would expect from Mojo, who dug and read so many great writers. But, not every lyric or poem is great. So he gets a pass from me on this one. :D
Pax
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Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
Yes :D ... and much better than Van Morrison's and Patti Smith's versions, although I do like Patti Smith's version too
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mjp
Founding member
I like Bob Dylan (he's punk rock), but there is no way in hell any of his lyrics would stand alone as good poetry. We've gone through the argument here before, but I believe that once you have heard the songs, you can't separate the words from the music. So it would seem to follow that you can't judge the words on their own.
Go to his web site, all his lyrics are there. Choose some from some later obscure record that you never bothered to listen to and tell me how much poetry you find there. At any point that you do think, "Yeah, this is poetry," imagine that Bukowski wrote the words. Would you consider it one of his great - or even good - works, or just filler?
Lyrics are lyrics, they aren't supposed to be poems, and vice versa. That is why poets who try to set their writing to music after the fact are so embarrassingly awful (hello Jim Carroll, you overhyped sack of shit!).
Of course, your mileage may vary. What is art, anyway?
;)
Time to feed the midgets who claim to be my offspring. The Hunger! The Hunger! I will digest and respond. But at first blush, you need to let me know who Jim Carroll is/was? Was he a poet? A rocker? A fashion casualty? Or just some formerly drugged out fuck-up who needs SEO/SEM help? However, I do like basketball. ;)
However, methinks Dylan is the exception to the rule. I get where you can't separate the song lyrics from the song; yes, I hear it while I'm reading it. It's that good. Memorable.
But I would argue strongly that some are pure poetic genius.
As follows, here are two gems:
Mr. Tambourine Man
Subterranean Homesick Blues
On that note:
[Snip lyrics to Subterranean Homesick Blues - they are plastered all over the web. ;)]
Not to be too agreeable, but dad-gum, FUCK, you are so right. As pre-stated, I can't read it without hearing it. Never thought about that...
But that doesn't mean it doesn't transcend the "lyric" moniker and dock in the poetry section of my warped cranium.
Now, to your question about art...let me get out the smokey johnny blue. Damn you're good. You must've posted here once or twice before. And could probably get a paying gig as a shrink. What's your hourly rate? Or is it by the delusion?
Pax
b
Punk rock? Is that bait? Do I look like the elusive Southern game fish, the Snook? :p:eek:
The lyrics, as you know, as plastered all over the web. But thanks. :D
What would you consider an obscure later record? Gold or platinum? I don't think he can come out with one that doesn't resonate with his fan base; however, I am not a fan of all the works. Like Vincent or even Buk, there are dogs in the mix. Can't hunt.
Here, you make sense. Can't argue with your example. And you are probably spot on, with the Ivory soap % ringing true.
However, methinks Dylan is the exception to the rule. I get where you can't separate the song lyrics from the song; yes, I hear it while I'm reading it. It's that good. Memorable.
But I would argue strongly that some are pure poetic genius.
As follows, here are two gems:
Mr. Tambourine Man
Subterranean Homesick Blues
On that note:
[Snip lyrics to Subterranean Homesick Blues - they are plastered all over the web. ;)]
Not to be too agreeable, but dad-gum, FUCK, you are so right. As pre-stated, I can't read it without hearing it. Never thought about that...
But that doesn't mean it doesn't transcend the "lyric" moniker and dock in the poetry section of my warped cranium.
Now, to your question about art...let me get out the smokey johnny blue. Damn you're good. You must've posted here once or twice before. And could probably get a paying gig as a shrink. What's your hourly rate? Or is it by the delusion?
Pax
b
homeless mind said:
Without a doubt, Dylan was the first punk rocker; a full decade ahead of time. Too many people confuse the term punk with a certain genre of "music" (had to get that in, sorry) referred to as punk rock, wothout thinking about what punk really means.
Punk means having no regard for establishment, authority or one's audience (in addition to a few other things). No '60s musician was more punk than Dylan on his 1966 UK tour. Just listen to The Bootleg Series Vol 4.
I'm not sure of mjp remembers that I probably wrote this a while ago here and is taking the Mickey or if he agrees, but either way, Dylan was the first punk musician. :D
Robert Johnson was the first punk and lyrics ain't poetry, no matter who writes them. and they shouldn't be, they are here to serve a different function.
Well sure, but he wasn't a rocker.
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
Mozart was the first punk.
mjp
Founding member
I agree. I've always maintained that he is. He won't even play his songs the same way twice. I'm with you.
Joe Strummer said, "Punk rock isn't something you grow out of, Punk rock is like the Mafia, and once you're made, you're made. Punk rock is an attitude, and the essence of the attitude is, 'give us some truth.'" And I can't argue with that or say it any better.
Woke up this mornin', all my shrimps was dead and gone...
No man, Gutenberg. He was all, "I can't get my ideas out to my peeps!" And some guy was like, "Have monks make manuscripts for you." And Gutenberg was all, "Fuck that, I'll print them myself. Where's the nearest Kinkos?" And dudes were all, "Wha?" And Gutenberg goes, "Shit, this is going to take longer than I thought..."
That's what I read on wikipedia, anyway.
Ambreen
Sordide Sentimental
Howard's Sounes biography talks about Buk's friendship with Steve Richmond (who left his law studies to open a bookshop specialised in poetry, so impressed he was by Buk's work) but there is nothing about Buk's and Morrison's potential links.
As I am living in France and very near Paris, I like wandering in the Pére Lachaise cemetery once or twice a year. Each time, I notice that Morrison's tombstone is definitely the greatest "attraction" of the cemetery ; it's amazing to see all the tourists walking with excitation toward it and going into ecstacies when having reached their goal. The first time I visited it, I was with two friends and we got lost while trying to find it. We met a young man wearing a Doors tee-shirt and he led us to it, explaining us he was in Paris since three months and that he came here everyday for his dear Morrison. A clinical case (and yet he looked sane) ?
As I am living in France and very near Paris, I like wandering in the Pére Lachaise cemetery once or twice a year. Each time, I notice that Morrison's tombstone is definitely the greatest "attraction" of the cemetery ; it's amazing to see all the tourists walking with excitation toward it and going into ecstacies when having reached their goal. The first time I visited it, I was with two friends and we got lost while trying to find it. We met a young man wearing a Doors tee-shirt and he led us to it, explaining us he was in Paris since three months and that he came here everyday for his dear Morrison. A clinical case (and yet he looked sane) ?
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bospress.net
www.bospress.net
Sounes makes mistakes and then will fight you to the death to defend his errors. Yes, he is a good biographer, but he is not PERFECT. When an error is pointed out, he denies that he could be wrong. So, if you believe his lack of attention to it, then there was no relationship between Richmond and Morrison, but if you believe Richmond and his friends, who saw Jim Morrison hanging out at Earth Books in Santa Monica with Steve Richmond then I guess you have to agree that Sounes did not mention it because he missed it, or thought that it was not important enough to include it. Of course, I would not expect him to write about every friend of a friend of Buk. The book was about Bukowski, not friends of friends of Bukowski. Frankly, I think that it should not be mentioned in a bio of Bukowski. A bio of Richmond, of course, but that was not what he was writing....
Bill
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Still trying to wrap my head around this thinking. Seeing how the term punk wasn't used until the mid '70s. Save for those things I used to light up to ignite fire-crackers, or, what kids were called in a non-flattering way (this has to be part of the root of the definition). Not sure I will ever agree. But understanding a POV doesn't need agreement.
How about The Doors' concert (attempt) in New Haven, Conn.? I've either heard or read that Mojo is considered by some to be the father of punk. I can't wrap my head around that either...Sid and Nancy, please come over to the Morrison house for Thanksgiving. We're going to be doing some acid, then reading some Percy Bysshe and Mary. Then, we're going to wreck the house. So don't worry about not being able to read...you can help with the latter.
That's actually very funny. And probably accurate, dependent upon definition.
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
Keep that in mind for future reference.