Perception of THE DOORS
- Thread starter homeless mind
- Start date
I think Morrison had the perfect band for what he was into, they were more jazz/blues players than rock and he was into the blues. I think LA Woman was there peak, musically and lyrically.
I have no doubt Morrison was aware of Bukowski, Morrison was very well read and lived in the same city- but I have no idea what his take on Buk was, he did like Kerouac and Celine but who knows.
I'm not a huge fan of John Densmore, drummer of the Doors, but to say he was simple or easily replaced my a machine makes no musical sense and I am a musician.
And lastly, homeless mind, do not put down "the drinking" thread- I'm sure Buk would want more replies on that than the goddamn "dinner" thread.
I have no doubt Morrison was aware of Bukowski, Morrison was very well read and lived in the same city- but I have no idea what his take on Buk was, he did like Kerouac and Celine but who knows.
I'm not a huge fan of John Densmore, drummer of the Doors, but to say he was simple or easily replaced my a machine makes no musical sense and I am a musician.
And lastly, homeless mind, do not put down "the drinking" thread- I'm sure Buk would want more replies on that than the goddamn "dinner" thread.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
HM,
Steve Richmond won't be in those two books as they are Bukowski-only issues. I think that Richmond & Locklin are in almost all of the other issues, though!
Bill
Steve Richmond won't be in those two books as they are Bukowski-only issues. I think that Richmond & Locklin are in almost all of the other issues, though!
Bill
Johannes
Founding member
It seems, Morrison and Bukowski even published poetry in the same mag in 1971, if I got it right:
--> http://search.abaa.org/dbp2/book350417794.html
Plus, they did meet :)
--> http://www.geocities.com/jimmozz/buk.htm
Shit, I can't believe that site still exists. It must be older than I.
--> http://search.abaa.org/dbp2/book350417794.html
Plus, they did meet :)
--> http://www.geocities.com/jimmozz/buk.htm
Shit, I can't believe that site still exists. It must be older than I.
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This thread got me thinking about my connection to "The Doors" and that period of the late 60's in America. I never thought that Morrison or the other group members were "great musicians" by any stretch of the imagination. But because their music coincided with this great eruption of passion and madness and energy and "higher states of consciousness" and my own adolescence, they made an impact on me. I would say "Light My Fire," "This is the End" and "Riders on the Storm" stand out as good music by any definition. But it's clear there was alot of very thin stuff otherwise...
And Morrison could be seen as much as a "symbol" for me of the Nietzschean (he apparently had read The Birth of Tragedy, according to the biographies) idea of the ecstasy of music, and the "shamanistic" idea of the artist as striving to reach transcendence through poetry, music, alcohol, love...
One also senses sometimes that those of us born in the Fifties who grew up in Southern California, that our life has a kind of "sound track."
Play "Satisfaction," "California Girls" or "Riders on the Storm" and BANG you are right back there... That's the power of alot of music--it brings back the time....
And Morrison could be seen as much as a "symbol" for me of the Nietzschean (he apparently had read The Birth of Tragedy, according to the biographies) idea of the ecstasy of music, and the "shamanistic" idea of the artist as striving to reach transcendence through poetry, music, alcohol, love...
One also senses sometimes that those of us born in the Fifties who grew up in Southern California, that our life has a kind of "sound track."
Play "Satisfaction," "California Girls" or "Riders on the Storm" and BANG you are right back there... That's the power of alot of music--it brings back the time....
Great points, David.
Makes me think of all the cool songs about California:
LA Woman, Doors
California Dreamin', Mamas & Papas
Going to California, Zep
San Francisco (Be Sure To Wear Some Flowers In Your Hair), Scott McKenzie
California Girls, Beach Boys
I'm sure the list is long, but these come to mind first...
Pax
Makes me think of all the cool songs about California:
LA Woman, Doors
California Dreamin', Mamas & Papas
Going to California, Zep
San Francisco (Be Sure To Wear Some Flowers In Your Hair), Scott McKenzie
California Girls, Beach Boys
I'm sure the list is long, but these come to mind first...
Pax
wow, that story is quite the fiction, right? but entertaining none the less. whoever wrote it got their mannerisms and personalities of the two down pretty good...
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K james.
fact and fiction seem to mesh well.
here's what it reminds me of: The Bad Hemingway Contest.
...known as "The Bad Hemingway Contest," The International Imitation Hemingway Competition is an annual writing competition held in Century City, California. Held for nearly thirty years, the festival pays mock homage to Ernest Hemingway by encouraging authors to submit a humorous "bad" writing in a Hemingway-esque style. Entrants were asked to submit a 'really good page of really bad Hemingway.'
Previous submissions have included such titles as "The Old Man and the Flea," and "The Bug Count also Rises," and "Across the Suburbs and Into the Express Lane," and "The Short, Happy Life of Frances' Comb."
The contest was often sponsored by Harry's Bar & American Grill in in Century City, Calif., as well as the PEN Center West and the contest entrants had two rules: mention Harry's Bar & Grill (the Venetian Harry's was long one of Hemingway's favorite watering holes) and be funny. Prizes were generally round-trip trickets and dinner for two at Harry's in Italy many writers and Hemingway fans were fanatical about the contest.
Hemingway's spare writing style has been often been imitated over the years even before the contest, and two anthologies of Imitation Hemingway have been published (The Best of Bad Hemingway, Volumes I & II) and include contest winners as well as satires of Hemingway written by E. B. White, Raymond Chandler, F. Scott Fitzgerald and George Plimpton. - wiki
Pax
fact and fiction seem to mesh well.
here's what it reminds me of: The Bad Hemingway Contest.
...known as "The Bad Hemingway Contest," The International Imitation Hemingway Competition is an annual writing competition held in Century City, California. Held for nearly thirty years, the festival pays mock homage to Ernest Hemingway by encouraging authors to submit a humorous "bad" writing in a Hemingway-esque style. Entrants were asked to submit a 'really good page of really bad Hemingway.'
Previous submissions have included such titles as "The Old Man and the Flea," and "The Bug Count also Rises," and "Across the Suburbs and Into the Express Lane," and "The Short, Happy Life of Frances' Comb."
The contest was often sponsored by Harry's Bar & American Grill in in Century City, Calif., as well as the PEN Center West and the contest entrants had two rules: mention Harry's Bar & Grill (the Venetian Harry's was long one of Hemingway's favorite watering holes) and be funny. Prizes were generally round-trip trickets and dinner for two at Harry's in Italy many writers and Hemingway fans were fanatical about the contest.
Hemingway's spare writing style has been often been imitated over the years even before the contest, and two anthologies of Imitation Hemingway have been published (The Best of Bad Hemingway, Volumes I & II) and include contest winners as well as satires of Hemingway written by E. B. White, Raymond Chandler, F. Scott Fitzgerald and George Plimpton. - wiki
Pax
the only good poet
One retreat after another without peace.
"death of Hendrix did not bother me. Janis Joplin death particularly saddening, terrible to me because to put it shittily, I related to her. she had the courage of a mountain, understand? don't worry about vocal chords...wrote an 8 or ten page tribute to the guts of Joplin but so filled with love, I had to destroy."
Living on Luck (p117)
Hmmm, I missed that letter. That tribute would have been a good read.
There are 2 'novels'-probably more that I'm not aware of- Burn Down The Night, by Craig Kee Strete-"An Autobiographical Novel". It is virtually unreadable, completely inane. The other, by beloved Manzarek-The Poet In Exile, is presented as if Morrison is still alive and sending letters to Ray. And get this! The opening quote... "His eyes had gotten kinder. Kindness came finally to the better ones. There was less self interest. Less fear. Less competitive gamesmanship". Charles Bukowski: Hollywood
Holy crap! As I had never managed to get through this one either, and it's been years since I even looked at it, I had no idea until just now that the quote was in there. Wild! CRB:)
Holy crap! As I had never managed to get through this one either, and it's been years since I even looked at it, I had no idea until just now that the quote was in there. Wild! CRB:)
^ That's an interesting find. Cool addition to this thread. But the book sounds totally fucking lame. Good for the bottom of a gerbil cage.
Yeah. Here you go.
'...abandoning his self-destructive life as a rock God, J had managed to disappear and undertake a private "journey to the East."....he returned to his island hideaway and settled down. A happily married man, the father of 2 children, he had discovered the secret life and was finally free of the demons that had driven him headlong through the American night....Would destiny smile upon the re-launch of one of the most influential rock and roll bands in history?"....
I'll end it. I don't even know what to say.CRB:)
'...abandoning his self-destructive life as a rock God, J had managed to disappear and undertake a private "journey to the East."....he returned to his island hideaway and settled down. A happily married man, the father of 2 children, he had discovered the secret life and was finally free of the demons that had driven him headlong through the American night....Would destiny smile upon the re-launch of one of the most influential rock and roll bands in history?"....
I'll end it. I don't even know what to say.CRB:)
I'd prefer gargling with clorox in lieu of reading that tripe.
There isn't a word horrendous enough to describe it. That is was published is bloody miracle. You're fingers must hurt from typing it...as much as my eyes do from reading it.
There isn't a word horrendous enough to describe it. That is was published is bloody miracle. You're fingers must hurt from typing it...as much as my eyes do from reading it.
Yes, something certainly hurts!:eek: I was so pissed off at Manzarek for this, it came on the heels of the DOORS2000 fiasco. I know everyone sells out eventually, shit, if Morrison were still alive he would too. But it is just heartbreaking really, that he chose to write some triffling crap, and perpetuate a stupid/needless myth....yeah, yeah...whatever. BigSmiles:DCRB:)
Didn't Densmore also write some twaddle about letters to Jim or something?
I can't bear to think about that, either; but it is probably on par with what Manzarek scribbled.
Dishonoring a dead confederate is no way to put more coin in the bank account, continue the myth, or try and keep the diminished light of fame shining.
When your fifteen minutes is up, be glad you had it "” especially when it lasted much longer than that. It's just fucking sad. Ugh.
I can't bear to think about that, either; but it is probably on par with what Manzarek scribbled.
Dishonoring a dead confederate is no way to put more coin in the bank account, continue the myth, or try and keep the diminished light of fame shining.
When your fifteen minutes is up, be glad you had it "” especially when it lasted much longer than that. It's just fucking sad. Ugh.
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Densmore wrote at least one book-Riders On The Storm- much more autobiograpical than biographical. He is a big fucking baby throughout the entire thing. As I recall he wrote poems TO Morrison, while working through his angst over their relationship.
He became a new-ager, for Christs sake! I think he went to Oregon to participate in drum circles in a 'healing camp' for Men-or some such shit. The entire book is pretty much him crying about how Morrison 'stole the show.'
Now I am paraphrasing here, it is one of the books I don't have because I simply couldn't stand his immature attitude about the whole thing. I'm sure when those checks roll in everymonth he's a little bit satisfied with the whole result!CRB:)
He became a new-ager, for Christs sake! I think he went to Oregon to participate in drum circles in a 'healing camp' for Men-or some such shit. The entire book is pretty much him crying about how Morrison 'stole the show.'
Now I am paraphrasing here, it is one of the books I don't have because I simply couldn't stand his immature attitude about the whole thing. I'm sure when those checks roll in everymonth he's a little bit satisfied with the whole result!CRB:)
I just went to his "Official Site." I can hear why people accuse him of drum machine status. OK, so it's jazz now, but fuck, many jazz drummers are great. Among the finest in the world. And keep it all together; the fucking backbone.
Don't know him, and have nothing against him, but damn, you're right. The checks probably come in pretty damn handy every month. And they ain't slowin' down. It's no longer music, but a franchise.
Time to get off the poor me soapbox and fess up. Mojo didn't like you. You didn't like him. Without Mojo, you'd be what? That must eat at him daily... And possibly a reason why he writes about it; some sort of self-pity, self-discovery, self-help bullshit. (Maybe that's in his book; I will never read it. I no longer own gerbils.)
Again, without Mojo, where would he be? Who would he have been?
Certainly not Bonzo. (Not that being dead is a good thang ;)).
Don't know him, and have nothing against him, but damn, you're right. The checks probably come in pretty damn handy every month. And they ain't slowin' down. It's no longer music, but a franchise.
Time to get off the poor me soapbox and fess up. Mojo didn't like you. You didn't like him. Without Mojo, you'd be what? That must eat at him daily... And possibly a reason why he writes about it; some sort of self-pity, self-discovery, self-help bullshit. (Maybe that's in his book; I will never read it. I no longer own gerbils.)
Again, without Mojo, where would he be? Who would he have been?
Certainly not Bonzo. (Not that being dead is a good thang ;)).
Certainly NOT bonzo!
I have never dug the whole woe is me crap from anyone. Cowboy up motherfucker-and while your at it shut up and leave me alone!(Yeah, I'm a mom:eek:heehee). Credit to you for even going to his site. I couldn't, not even if my curiosity was getting the better of me. I just do not like the way he presented himself in that book. I always felt that if Jim were alive, Densmore would have never had the balls to say what he said, and to me, that spells=FAKE.CRB:)
I have never dug the whole woe is me crap from anyone. Cowboy up motherfucker-and while your at it shut up and leave me alone!(Yeah, I'm a mom:eek:heehee). Credit to you for even going to his site. I couldn't, not even if my curiosity was getting the better of me. I just do not like the way he presented himself in that book. I always felt that if Jim were alive, Densmore would have never had the balls to say what he said, and to me, that spells=FAKE.CRB:)
You go girl.
Passion = cool.
And I hear what you're saying. To many gutless twerps never have the balls to say what they feel. Or mask it with whitewash. Or wait until someone is gone, and then get out the fucking sledge hammer.
I've always been afraid to speak my mind. And try to keep it neat and clean, hiding behind good manners. :eek:
What did you think of Stone's movie? And Kilmer playing Mojo?
Kilmer was perfect, hands down. He is fascinating to watch. The film itself,(IMO) was fluff. Stone told alot of lies, or at least chose to present certain things/events fictionally. I never understood this. Anyone that was/is a fan of The Doors could see this instantly!(ie-the way he presented the ED Sullivan show situation.) I didn't really like whats-her-name as Pam either.CRB:)
I gotta defend Densmore, again big fan of the Doors moderate fan of Densmore.
Taste is always subjective, I can't stand Bonham but I understand his talent. Densmore is technically, a very fine drummer and for the sixities he was probably one of the best rock ones.
And as far as making a buck off Morrison he has been the one who doesn't want to sell the songs for commercials and fought and won against the other two remaining Doors to make them discontinue using the name (they're now Riders On The Storm). Everyone can guess what Morrison would do now but he was against commercial use while he was still alive (he nixed having Light My Fire for a car commercial).
By the way the Doors had a legal agreement of equal partners and everyone agreeing on something to make it happen.
In light of this it would appear to me that Densmore is Morrisons only true friend as he is holding up his wishes.
Taste is always subjective, I can't stand Bonham but I understand his talent. Densmore is technically, a very fine drummer and for the sixities he was probably one of the best rock ones.
And as far as making a buck off Morrison he has been the one who doesn't want to sell the songs for commercials and fought and won against the other two remaining Doors to make them discontinue using the name (they're now Riders On The Storm). Everyone can guess what Morrison would do now but he was against commercial use while he was still alive (he nixed having Light My Fire for a car commercial).
By the way the Doors had a legal agreement of equal partners and everyone agreeing on something to make it happen.
In light of this it would appear to me that Densmore is Morrisons only true friend as he is holding up his wishes.
Agreed. Kilmer nailed it. Spooky good.
And I thought Manzarek and Krieger were well represented by their respective actor choices. Damn, Ray looked like Ray (IMO). Like you, I still have a bit of a bone in my throat over JD, so I won't comment. How does one act like a drum machine? JK.
The Stone cameo was funny; during the LA Film school scene. Also, that remake of Mojo's film piece wasn't accurate, I believe. Anyone here know? I'm sure it was partly correct, but embellished for the silver screen.
And Pamela Morrison, I thought, wasn't bad. Perhaps not my first choice for an actress, but who would have been better? Perhaps an unknown?
I also liked Billy Idol in the movie. Some street cred.
I'm not up on all the facts that were misrepresented in the movie, but knowing how Stone does all his movies, there must have been more than a few "creative" interpretations taken.
Overall, I thought the film worked.
And, as entertainment, I didn't mind paying the seven bucks or so to see it. Worth every cent. I went with a bunch of Doors' nuts who really gave it high marks. Kilmer certainly influenced the nods. And, of course the music "” even though some of the overdubbing seemed a bit forced and surreal.
I give the movie a thumbs up. And own it on DVD, as I do "Barfly." The only difference? I own "Barfly" on VHS, too.
You may be in the minority here.
After the fact doesn't always work in my lexicon.
Ask A-Rod. There's a tin feeling to the words...
Especially when the bank account if flush. Morals are quite easy to have, then...
I'm all for the COWBOY UP line of thinking. But maybe he's done that?
As mjp whiteboarded, imagine Mojo with a different rock band?
Imagine The Doors, with a different drummer? Not sure if it mattered, relative to the work they created...but if you bring in Jimmy Page, or Hendrix, well, Densmore would have to go. I don't think he would have fit. He may have been parking cars, or teaching classes in transcendental meditation. Who knows? Perhaps he would have been part of another rock band, that had even more success? This is like fantasy football, which I don't know much about or play. But fun to ponder...
And, in closing, Densmore was part of The Doors who released the album (I got it on 8-track, I'm embarrassed to say), OTHER VOICES.
Man, that sucked.
And has the numbing beat of selective integrity. For all of them, including Mr. Densmore.
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slimedog, you are right that Densmore has been one fighting against the sale off of certain rights. I am fully aware of the fact that The Doors recorded as a group, with rights attributed to ALL members. But much of this has been made moot since the rights automatically transfered to the Morrison and Coursen families after their deaths. (As far as I know, the courts STILL recognize Jim's and Pam's commen law marriage). Money is going places where maybe Densmore does not want it to go?? He also complained,(i believe in his own book), that he was unhappy/unfullfilled with the drumming he was 'allowed' to do with The Doors.
I know that I'm talking some shit here. I DO LOVE the music of the doors; even though I have never particularly liked the circus. It is simple for me, years ago I read Densmore's book and it left a puke-ish taste in my mouth. IMO he is a baby and a New-Age fake.(& yes, i have some issues with the NewAgers!)
It does not mean that I am not about to put 'Morrison Hotel' into my CD player and be VERY happy about it! CRB:)
I know that I'm talking some shit here. I DO LOVE the music of the doors; even though I have never particularly liked the circus. It is simple for me, years ago I read Densmore's book and it left a puke-ish taste in my mouth. IMO he is a baby and a New-Age fake.(& yes, i have some issues with the NewAgers!)
It does not mean that I am not about to put 'Morrison Hotel' into my CD player and be VERY happy about it! CRB:)
Just to explain a little about how money is divided in a band, normally the writers of the song get a good load of the money i.e Jagger and Richards get more than say Charlie Watts. With the Doors there agreement was a four way even split so that even though Densmore didn't write any songs he gets a fourth of all related revenue as do the other three (or family members). I remember several years ago but long after they broke up, they were selling a million albums a year. That's a pretty good take with no studio time, advertisement expense etc.
As far as imagining Morrison with hard rock players, well, at the time there were few bands like Zeppelin, Sabbath or Hendrix and heavy metal had not even started. If you took music lessons in the sixties your teachers had grown up before rock so you got taught by jazz players(wh had learned in the fifties or before)-so it's not surprising that a lot of sixties players had folk or jazz influences as the Doors did and many other bands of the time.
Densmore had a jazz style, guitarist Kreiger had learned folk and flamenco, Manzarek had classical, jazz & blues influence. They were all considered very good musicians and Morrison had said how much he appreciated them (considering how he "performed" sometimes, I guess he should!) Morrison liked the blues best, I doubt he would've made any hard rock albums if he survived. For me the band was perfect though individually none are my favorite players.
The three musician Doors were hippies that eventually turned into new age pretty much, again not a surprise from the time they came from, but I certainly loved the music they made.
As far as imagining Morrison with hard rock players, well, at the time there were few bands like Zeppelin, Sabbath or Hendrix and heavy metal had not even started. If you took music lessons in the sixties your teachers had grown up before rock so you got taught by jazz players(wh had learned in the fifties or before)-so it's not surprising that a lot of sixties players had folk or jazz influences as the Doors did and many other bands of the time.
Densmore had a jazz style, guitarist Kreiger had learned folk and flamenco, Manzarek had classical, jazz & blues influence. They were all considered very good musicians and Morrison had said how much he appreciated them (considering how he "performed" sometimes, I guess he should!) Morrison liked the blues best, I doubt he would've made any hard rock albums if he survived. For me the band was perfect though individually none are my favorite players.
The three musician Doors were hippies that eventually turned into new age pretty much, again not a surprise from the time they came from, but I certainly loved the music they made.
mjp
Founding member
Well it's just imagining, isn't it? But Hendrix played at the Monterey Pop Festival the year the first Doors album came out, so there was certainly a few years of overlap. By the time Morrison died, all the "heavy" bands had released their first, and sometimes second, albums.
I wouldn't want to see Morrison front any of those bands. I'm just saying the players were there, the influences were there, and the Marshall stacks were there. He went the way he went - the jazz rock hippie route - and the noise clowns went in another direction. The two were not destined to meet up.