Alcoholism - why didn't it destroy Bukowski?
- Thread starter Olaf
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In Glasgow? You're kidding, right? :D
mjp
Founding member
Do you really think alcoholism is a disease? Like cancer or genital herpes?
It can be an addiction, and it's a genetic predisposition, for sure (hi dad!), but something inside me always goes, "Wha?!" when people call it a disease. Whatever technical classification it might fall under, you can always put down the bottle and the "disease" stops immediately. Try that with genital herpes or Proteus syndrome.
I'm not saying that the urge to drink goes away when you put down the bottle, but the cause of most of the problems caused by drinking certainly do.
And what it art, anyway?
;)
"Why don't you stop drinking? Anybody can be a drunk ..."
- "Anybody can be a Non-Drunk. It takes a special talent to be a drunk. It takes endurance."
mjp
Founding member
True, I'll give you that.
But that is where I think most addicts (not differentiating between addictions here) show their real underlying problem, and that is not a chemical problem, it's immaturity.
Before you laugh yourself unconscious, think about every addict you've ever known. Most of them have a lot of common traits; they need attention, need to be catered to, rescued, they will do whatever the hell they want to do whenever the hell they want to do it, their world is themselves and it doesn't go out beyond that. Just like an average two year old.
Just an observation. It doesn't apply to every addict, but it sure applies to a lot of them.
I think it might be a physical / genetic pre-condition as well in many cases. Especially when it comes to drink. There's incidences of people who've never drunk until later life but killed themselves with the sauce anyway. Quite a famous example is the mother of George Best, the soccer player (who also drank himself to death). I know what you're saying about using the word 'disease' although I have heard doctors using that to describe it as well. It's certainly an abnormal pre-disposition that some people seem to have. I suppose you could argue a lot of problems / personality traits etc. are too though ;)
ever read post office? bukowski did delivered the mail, but not on his bicycle (hell, did he even have one?). he was delivering mail while driving a car through a hard rain and then the engine stopped working.
I tried to be a drunk but I failed at it. Even a good smoker. I couldn't be. I think the problem is I am very self-conscious and that is a bad disease. Much worse than any addiction. You can't prefer one to another. Bukowski is certainly right. Truly any achievement, being something, is all about endurance. There is no secret.
I have looked in on this thread with amusement. I beleive that alcoholism to be a self diagnosed malady and I have yet to read anything Hank wrote where he stated he had this "condition".
As far as demon rum destroying Bukowski,it may have significantly shortened his stay among the living but his legacy has lived on, with vigor.
As far as demon rum destroying Bukowski,it may have significantly shortened his stay among the living but his legacy has lived on, with vigor.
chronic
old and in the way
Do you believe that tumors are imaginary friends?
Well, you're certainly keeping the humour going anyway.
Didn't Bukowski say that alcohol saved him from committing suicide while living in the 'slums' (he used this word)?
Beer and wine extended his life! ;) Cheers!
Beer and wine extended his life! ;) Cheers!
I'm not kidding. Glasgow has a horrific alcohol problem. Many of my family have serious alcohol problems, it's ruined their lives, they've ruined other peoples. Sometimes I think people read Bukowski and think he is advocating drinking all the time and lots of people do it; they think it's cool or shows that you're a man, and real tough motherfucker, but honestly, once you've seen one drunk prick, you've seen them all. But then again, how many of them are sitting writing, trying to assimilate some of the demons onto the page? Answer: Not many.
Interestin to read responses though, lot of good answers and suggestions, but this idea that if you don't drink like a ranging alcoholc you're some time of lesser human being is puuure delusion. Bukowski did write to show anyone how to live, but many people read his books and try to live as he did, and think that being a complete drunk is some kind of reward in itself, that it shows your alpha-male, be damned with the world attitude.
Yet, addiction can be sooo fucked up, families mauled by it; you go into the social work department in Glasgow and you'll find all sorts of alcoholics, desperate to break free from the demon drink. And it's not a sign of weakness, these people have endured a lot of hardship, and they're not sitting their saying - 'drink is cool' 'it's the way foward', 'it shows you're a man'. Like mjp said, a lot of heavy drinks, have an immaturity they can't surpass, they literally can't proces life 'beyond' the demon drink.
It's a rare few that catalogue their lives with it; most of them are shunned by society, piss and shit themselves, wear the same clothes until they are rigid with dirt and grime. It blows my mind how fucked up the drink can make people.
i found some photos made in cardiff which might prove what olaf says...
http://www.pbase.com/maciekda/story_cardiff_nightlife
http://www.pbase.com/maciekda/story_cardiff_nightlife
Yes, sorry for being inaccurrate.
I made my first major drinking experience in Torquay, England. The son of the host family took the other german guy and me to the local pub with his friend. It was a kind of cheerful drinking battle England vs. Germany which I lost. Those two were visiting the pub every night during that time and New Castle Brown Ale isn't really a beer for beginners ;)
(To be honest I had to vomit outside, but it's not unromantic to vomit while bending over an acient looking wall in the moonlight, if it doesn't become a habit.)
mjp
Founding member
Well, the good folks of Cardiff seem to be real fucking slobs. Overflowing trash cans I can understand, but that bus stop picture is pathetic.
Lolita Twist
Rose-hustler
Everyone seems to be forgetting culture... possibly if you're from somewhere like Glasgow (and I have a good friend from there, heavy drinker, too) you're not considered an "alcoholic", you're just drunk like everybody else everyday. Perhaps "alcoholic" is an Americanized mental-complex. The people on the AA forums respond to this question, "how do I know I'm an alcoholic?" with, "when you say you're an alcoholic."
Anyway , it is amazing that someone who drinks heavily for decades
can reach age of 74 , like Bukowski did it.
Plus , he didn't care about healthy diet or exercises
and he was smoker, so it is realy miracle how he survived so long.
Does anyone knows how old were his parents when they died?
can reach age of 74 , like Bukowski did it.
Plus , he didn't care about healthy diet or exercises
and he was smoker, so it is realy miracle how he survived so long.
Does anyone knows how old were his parents when they died?
Precisely, very well put.
Did I tell you that I threw up five times the next morning after I enthusiastically posted I'd been drinking my second beer after two years of boring soberness?
I just can't do it anymore. It was only three cans of beer (one and a half litre), but the next day I was sick. So the time is gone. I've had enough drinks. Body proven.
Sick, yes it felt like a disease had taken over me; perhaps that's why some call alcoholism a disease, I don't know. Well, certainly not because of me.
I just can't do it anymore. It was only three cans of beer (one and a half litre), but the next day I was sick. So the time is gone. I've had enough drinks. Body proven.
Sick, yes it felt like a disease had taken over me; perhaps that's why some call alcoholism a disease, I don't know. Well, certainly not because of me.
I've had two posts deleted, harmless posts. What gives?