That half hour goes by quick too. Especially when the self-reflective alarm goes off at the 31 minute mark. Agree with d gray, cranky Rekrab is enjoyable reading. I've never noticed the "getting out of line" thing, though. Always thoughtful and fair is what I come away with when reading Rekrab's posts. I could learn a thing or two from that. A certain someone needs to stop being so hard on themselves.
An appraisal of the new poet laureate, Philip Levine, mentions Bukowski
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Ahhhh, come on Hooch!
He just about spit in your face, didn't he?
You guys were just getting started!
My take is that anyone working seriously with words will have something worth listening to, every now and then.
Some try too hard and give us phrases like "their acrid bouquets." which show off and lose focus too much for me, but in the very same line he's got the phrase "of smoke and grease" which I like.
People who work with words (or music, or paint, or a printing presses, or stamp collecting, or organizing Bukowski.net, or writing comments on Buk.net, or whatever) have a tendency to fall in love with their work. Thats OK, but when that love goes to their head, and makes them near sighted, it is a bit, well, irritating.
On the other hand who am I to say people shouldn't enjoy pretty phrases and harmless word bouquets?
Levins's quip at Buk is actually him acknowledging, deep down, somewehere, (even if he doesn't know it himself) the power and originality of Buk's poetry. It was a freudian slip. A nervous tick. Anxiety of influence.
He was thinking of Buk when he wrote that poem. Understandably.
PS: I enjoy crabby Rekrab and hrrrumfy Hooch as well...
jordan
lothario speedwagon
for me, bad writing is like bad music. any genre of music can be bad, but i'd rather sit through a bad punk rock song (a genre that i enjoy) than a bad R&B song (a genre i deplore). i'm not so open minded that i'll listen to anything once - you may have the most transcendent hip hop song that i've just gotta listen to and that will change my entire opinion about hip hop, but i don't want to listen to it, because i know i won't like it. same goes for religious poetry, christian rock, and abstract photography. daivd mentioned a while back that he doesn't like any graphic novels, and while i can't imagine not liking *any* graphic novels, i wasn't about to say "oh, just read jimmy corrigan or black hole," because if he doesn't like the genre, then the shining lights of that genre won't change his mind. (of course there's a whole separate debate about whether comics are a genre or a medium, but we can ignore that for now.) so, while i admire steve's willingness to engage the writing on its own terms - and while i'm hesitant to share the look-down-your-nose attitude about academics that came across in david's posts (perhaps unintentionally) - i think i fall closer to david's way of thinking. there's too much crap out there to give everything a fair shake. prejudice in one's artistic/literary tastes saves time and helps you focus on the good stuff.
but is academic poetry a genre? is small press poetry a genre? I consider myself a small press poet, because that's where I'm published. if the New Yorker emailed me and said "one of our interns saw a poem of yours in MILK magazine and showed it to us. we liked it. got anymore like that?" I'm not going to say 'fuck you' and David Barker isn't going to say 'fuck you.' we'll say thank you very much and take the check. I don't write to fit a genre, and I don't think David does either. or Hosho or barrett or name a small press writer. I write to get a point across in an interesting way, hopefully in a way that hasn't been written before. I would hate to think that someone doesn't want to read a poem by me because I went to university. or because I went to university but wasted that degree by working blue collar jobs for the past 20+ years. that would suck.
modern poetry is very similar; there are no sonnets or sestinas or limericks being published on a regular basis in any magazine, big or small. it's free verse. a small arena with many crowded stages. you open a mag and without looking at the words the structure and formatting look very similar, whereas songs by the Dead Kennedys and R.Kelly share very few similarities. I see what you're getting at jordan, but I don't think the metaphor applies.
modern poetry is very similar; there are no sonnets or sestinas or limericks being published on a regular basis in any magazine, big or small. it's free verse. a small arena with many crowded stages. you open a mag and without looking at the words the structure and formatting look very similar, whereas songs by the Dead Kennedys and R.Kelly share very few similarities. I see what you're getting at jordan, but I don't think the metaphor applies.
jordan
lothario speedwagon
what i was trying to get at was this:
if i see a bio for a poet that says things like, "MFA from Cornell; writing fellow at Yale; I write to explore gender-normative dialectics in modern interpersonal relations..." i won't go near it.
i suppose maybe it isn't a question of genre, but i stand by my claim that some tired, trite bukowski-wannabe poem in a small press magazine is still preferable (to me, at least) than a wanktastic academic wank fest from academia. and, if that leads me to steer clear of publications where the latter is generally preferred over the former purely based on that prejudice, i'm okay with that.
if i see a bio for a poet that says things like, "MFA from Cornell; writing fellow at Yale; I write to explore gender-normative dialectics in modern interpersonal relations..." i won't go near it.
i suppose maybe it isn't a question of genre, but i stand by my claim that some tired, trite bukowski-wannabe poem in a small press magazine is still preferable (to me, at least) than a wanktastic academic wank fest from academia. and, if that leads me to steer clear of publications where the latter is generally preferred over the former purely based on that prejudice, i'm okay with that.
but where's the line? would you turn down The New Yorker? or The Paris Review? and if you are published there, what does that mean?
and as someone who wants to be a poet, I read everything to see what the shit is so I can stay away from it. if I'm reading beer shit poems all day long (whether they are good or bad) all I'm going to write are beer shit poems. don't we have enough beer shit poems? or poems abot Grecian urns, or red wheelbarrows? writers have to read everything, it's our job.
that's why I've pared mine down to : Stephen Hines lives and writes in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia.
and as someone who wants to be a poet, I read everything to see what the shit is so I can stay away from it. if I'm reading beer shit poems all day long (whether they are good or bad) all I'm going to write are beer shit poems. don't we have enough beer shit poems? or poems abot Grecian urns, or red wheelbarrows? writers have to read everything, it's our job.
that's why I've pared mine down to : Stephen Hines lives and writes in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia.
jordan
lothario speedwagon
there doesn't have to be a line... i'm defending prejudices in taste, saying it is sometimes okay to form an opinion of something without reading it first, based on whatever criteria. obviously you wouldn't do this 100% of the time, just like you wouldn't read everything anyone suggested with a totally open mind 100% of the time,
also, someone is arguing like they never want to be published by chance press again...x~O
also, someone is arguing like they never want to be published by chance press again...x~O
only if I can do a larding piece with Philip Levine!
why? what do you have planned?
why? what do you have planned?
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
Thanks, you guys. When I have minor doubts about my posts, it's usually within the half hour and I can fix them. When I go completely off the rails, it's always a couple later that I realize it -- too late to undo.
Cranky is the word for what I become at those times. Man, I hate cranky. Cranky has a wire up his ass. It's always good when cranky goes away and my regular self returns.
Cranky is the word for what I become at those times. Man, I hate cranky. Cranky has a wire up his ass. It's always good when cranky goes away and my regular self returns.
mjp
Founding member
To me it isn't a question of where a poet has been published, but how they live their lives, and/or what they stand for, and that pretty much covers most of what I appreciate in the culture. That's why I don't hate the Levis ad with the Bukowski poem, or disregard anyone who figures out a way to make a dollar doing something creative, even if that dollar comes from The New Yorker, Paramount Pictures or the Beijing Olympics.
It's a personal thing with me, and people who teach writing or poetry or film making or anything else by parroting a lot of boundaries and rules and accepted methodology all rub me the wrong way. If it's a character flaw on my part, it's one I've learned to accept. I need some dirt on my lettuce, and a life of academia isn't exactly the best place to acquire any kind of grit. Or an interesting personality, or anything at all that interests me on an artistic level. It's a safe road, and the safe road only takes you to the mall or the capitol building.
There is a built-in condescension in that academic poetry that makes me want to stuff it back down the writer's throat. And when they reinforce that condescension by making comments denigrating anything that isn't academic or "intelligent," I only want to stuff their work and their words back down their throats further and with considerably more force. They aren't my people, and I think their art - all of it - is shit.
That can be based on their comments or my observations without reading, seeing or otherwise consuming any of their shit. I don't see how that is invalid in any way. I don't have to watch Spiderman on Broadway or whatever it's called to know I'm going to profoundly hate it with every molecule of my being. In the same way that I know I will probably like certain other things because they are in a realm or done by a person that I already know I enjoy. Isn't that human nature? Are we not men?
---
Now I just read back what I typed and I don't know if it makes any sense in the grand scheme of things. I can think of arguments against myself (not uncommon, I'm afraid). But I suppose I'll hit "Post Reply" anyway, if for no other reason than to maintain my status as a loudmouth.
It's a personal thing with me, and people who teach writing or poetry or film making or anything else by parroting a lot of boundaries and rules and accepted methodology all rub me the wrong way. If it's a character flaw on my part, it's one I've learned to accept. I need some dirt on my lettuce, and a life of academia isn't exactly the best place to acquire any kind of grit. Or an interesting personality, or anything at all that interests me on an artistic level. It's a safe road, and the safe road only takes you to the mall or the capitol building.
There is a built-in condescension in that academic poetry that makes me want to stuff it back down the writer's throat. And when they reinforce that condescension by making comments denigrating anything that isn't academic or "intelligent," I only want to stuff their work and their words back down their throats further and with considerably more force. They aren't my people, and I think their art - all of it - is shit.
That can be based on their comments or my observations without reading, seeing or otherwise consuming any of their shit. I don't see how that is invalid in any way. I don't have to watch Spiderman on Broadway or whatever it's called to know I'm going to profoundly hate it with every molecule of my being. In the same way that I know I will probably like certain other things because they are in a realm or done by a person that I already know I enjoy. Isn't that human nature? Are we not men?
---
Now I just read back what I typed and I don't know if it makes any sense in the grand scheme of things. I can think of arguments against myself (not uncommon, I'm afraid). But I suppose I'll hit "Post Reply" anyway, if for no other reason than to maintain my status as a loudmouth.
Definitely hit the nail on the head. Rarely do I manage to attend any of my classes because of the bullshit that's present. Lots of pedantry/posturing and self-adulation. I only do the work to stave off the eventuality that I'll end up working in a factory. Guess I'm on the safe road, or kidding myself.
I'm officially retiring from this thread before I get blacklisted from the small presses.
Bill? we still solid? Bill? BILL!? ;)
Bill? we still solid? Bill? BILL!? ;)
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
I follow with what Chance Press does. If you are out with them, then there is nothing that I can do for you!
ha!
We small press folks are pack hunters!
Bill
ha!
We small press folks are pack hunters!
Bill
See what you get, hooch? All that "judge something on its own merits" and "think for yourself" nonsense. What a tool. My revised future reading list:
Hosho McCreesh
Dave Donovan
David Barker
That Phillips guy
Christopher Cunningham
William Taylor Jr.
Harry Calhoun
Alexander Adams
Brian McGettrick
Stephen Hines
Etc. < My apologies to those lumped under etc.
Hosho McCreesh
Dave Donovan
David Barker
That Phillips guy
Christopher Cunningham
William Taylor Jr.
Harry Calhoun
Alexander Adams
Brian McGettrick
Etc. < My apologies to those lumped under etc.
number6horse
okyoutwopixiesoutyougo
Stop ripping off Ice Cube - the greatest poet of them all.
Seriously, Levine didn't miss the mark by much (in my opinion) but, damn, he could have tightened the frigging thing to 14 stanzas or so. Just sayin'
Black Swan
Abord the Yorikke!
Levine talks too much. :)
i know - i had no idea how 'street' rekrab was. :DD
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
Well said, mjp.
I think -- in the two poems I read -- he misses by a wide mark. Missing at all in poetry is missing big. It's a high precision art, unlike fiction. There is cloudiness, some almost amateur errors in what I read, surprising in a multi-award winner. He really isn't even very good, at least in those two poems.
Hope I did not wake up cranky today. Checking myself...
My exact sentiments.
I think -- in the two poems I read -- he misses by a wide mark. Missing at all in poetry is missing big. It's a high precision art, unlike fiction. There is cloudiness, some almost amateur errors in what I read, surprising in a multi-award winner. He really isn't even very good, at least in those two poems.
Hope I did not wake up cranky today. Checking myself...
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
Hope I have not already said this above, but what I see in academic poetry is that it is entirely job related work. A product of the "publish or perish" imperative. Your boss (the Dean or whatever) will see it. How honest can a poet be in that environment? Can he/she write "The department head has his head up his ass" or "This place is run by fools"? Can he be depressed, drunk, insane, lost, pissed off, etc., etc? No. The purpose of academic poetry always seems to be to impress other academics. Nothing else beyond that. Academic poets generally have nothing to say, no real drive to write, no burning vision, no raw guts spilling out. It's all a display of safe and accepted style and technique. I'd rather read the rantings of some lost soul struggling on the margins, something true and from the heart. When academics win prizes judged by other academics, it means nothing to me. Poet Laureate of the U.S. is a jackass award. I would be embarrassed to be in that class.
End of ranting for today.
End of ranting for today.