Beatles or Stones (or Kinks? Monkees? Herman's Hermits?)

HiddenFormula

HiddenFormula

Purple Stickpin said:
Oh dear. Seriously; lyrics are not poetry. I had this argument with my wife on Saturday night, and she still doesn't accept it.

But it's true. It doesn't mean that they are any less viable as thoughts or any less valuble. It's just that you can't read song lyrics and expect them to be a poem. And you can't sing a poem and expect a good song.

An obvious counter argument would be Morrison or Dylan. But try it:

Morrison wrote poetry, and he wrote lyrics. But ne'er the twain shall meet. Not to say that he didn't recite poetry over music "as lyrics." But that doesn't count; we're talking true sung lyrics vs. poetry.

Dylan writes mainly lyrics, and while they come close, they fall flat as poetry. Try it with Desolation Row, Visions of Johanna, It's Alright Ma or A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall. Great words. Horrible poems.
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I agree....lyrics are always to a degree restrained by the music. With poetry I guess you have total freedom to express yourself purely through words regardless of form, rhyme or whatever. Lyrics rely on the music to enhance the emotion, and in turn the passion of the music is enhanced by the lyrical subject & style. Of course some lyrics verge on poetry when you read them alone, but most times you can tell that they have been written with the music in mind.

In music the melody & song will always be the most accesible part. Although lyrics are important, the music is what grabs you first and sucks you in....then after you loose yourself in the sounds & textures of the song you start to listen to the words, and it's like the music carries the words along in your mind, but with poetry it's less passive and requires more effort and imagination.
 
scribbler

scribbler

I think its okay to care which words accompany your music...I also think its okay NOT to care. Any ol words will do, and rhyming even helps. Because in music its not the story that counts...and if it is, then its likely either bad music or bad story.
If you got a tale to tell...write that fucker down, no chords, beats, melody should be allowed to try to sap it.
Protest songs?...hah, they were all just songs in the end, not protests.
You wanna be Che Guevara, you better get a better weapon than an acoustic guitar.
 
homeless mind

homeless mind

Gerard K H Love said:
Just be glad the Monkees didn't make it to the title as well.
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Well, with the Beatles, Stones, Herman's Hermits, at least we have some solid representation of a fine homegrown USA band:

The Monkees.

Any band that had Jimi Hendrix open for them is AOK in my book.

:eek:

scribbler said:
I think its okay to care which words accompany your music...I also think its okay NOT to care. Any ol words will do, and rhyming even helps. Because in music its not the story that counts...and if it is, then its likely either bad music or bad story.
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Mr. S:

So, you're saying "Stairway To Heaven" would be just as good without the lyrics? And/or any lyrics would have worked? The story doesn't matter?

Hmmm.

:confused:

Pax
 
mjp

mjp

Founding member
The lyrics to Stairway to Heaven? Please. They are random crap at best. Not to mention impenetrable in spots to most of the American kids who made them millionaires (a bustle in your hedgerow? Fuck you!).





It's funny, I was thinking just this morning about how I used to play the intro to Stairway during any particularly long lull between songs at punk gigs, just to see the violent reaction. It never failed to spark some sort of response. Never positive, naturally. We used to threaten unresponsive audiences with the song. "If you fuckers don't show some signs of life we're going to play Stairway to Heaven!" Ha ha.
 
CRBSMILE

CRBSMILE

I always took that line to mean, that some broad left her bustle in the shrubs after having had a quickie with some random knight...you see, she had to leave in a hurry and...OH never mind.
 
Gerard K H Love

Gerard K H Love

Appreciate your friends
I love it when you fantasize out CRB, it shows us how kinky you are.;)


This should be my new signature:
(a bustle in your hedgerow? Fuck you!).
 
homeless mind

homeless mind

mjp said:
The lyrics to Stairway to Heaven? Please. They are random crap at best. Not to mention impenetrable in spots to most of the American kids who made them millionaires (a bustle in your hedgerow? Fuck you!).
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Come on, cut me some slack here...

Hey, I'm not saying the song is great (not my point). For the record, I dig, and I'm a huge Plant & Page fan. But they have much better, less commercial songs. Some songs on Zep II and/or Physical Graffiti rock the house.

And Dazed & Confused, well, 'nuf said. One more thought here: if rock n roll ever fornicated with the blues, this is a good porn version...And Plant has fucking pipes, man. Sick pipes.

Back on topic: my pencil point was merely this:

The lyrics to a song matter. It was an example. Without those lyrics, it is not as powerful as with them. Again, you don't have to like the song. I'm just illustrating a point. With mental crayons. That's all.

As for Zep, rumor has it they can still fill a stadium or two. And Bonzo was the best drummer ever to pick up a drum stick "” rock n roll, not jazz.

Pax

Gerard K H Love said:
This should be my new signature:
(a bustle in your hedgerow? Fuck you!).
Click to expand...

Do your lips have cellophane attached? Let's hope so.

I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together...

;)
 
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CRBSMILE

CRBSMILE

That is f-in AWESOME! I've never heard that. I think Zep may have taken a bit more than lyrics, there is alot of their sound in there. Is this guy acknowledged on the LP? Wow. Very cool, Thanks Dig.:)
 
S

slimedog

Led Zep-worst lyrics of any band, evah.

I'm also not kidding when I say I'd rather listen to Paul Revere & the Raiders then those overrated limeys.
 
chronic

chronic

old and in the way
Digney in Burnaby said:
Here's the original by Jake Holmes.
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Thanks for that. I heard long ago abut this version but never heard it until now.

Someone should issue a CD of the original versions of all of the songs that Led Zeppelin stole (it would have to be a 2 or 3 disc set). I always wondered how they managed to avoid being sued out of existence by the people they stole from. I know that Willie Dixon sued them for a song or two but never heard about any other lawsuits against them for plagiarism.
 
CRBSMILE

CRBSMILE

I have a CD- 'Pickin' On Zeppelin'-which I love. All blue-grass renditions of Zep songs. Tried to link it once to the, 'What Are You Listening To Now' thread. I had no luck finding it. Iam/was a big
Zppelin fan. It is so much a part of my youth that it's hard to let it go, or even talk serious shit. I saw Page live in 88', on his own, and I loved the show. I would not pay to go see a Zep. reunion show. And I hope they hold out and that they DON'T do it. One of the things that always sat sour with me about The Stones was that they never could seem to just give it a rest. I mean, does anyone remember the Jagger/Bowie fiasco of the 80's? I can't even remember the name of that song-I think I've effectivly blocked it out. It was horrible-just like the majority of 80's music.CRB:)
 
Lolita Twist

Lolita Twist

Rose-hustler
Purple Stickpin said:
Oh dear. Seriously; lyrics are not poetry. I had this argument with my wife on Saturday night, and she still doesn't accept it.

But it's true. It doesn't mean that they are any less viable as thoughts or any less valuble. It's just that you can't read song lyrics and expect them to be a poem. And you can't sing a poem and expect a good song.

An obvious counter argument would be Morrison or Dylan. But try it:

Morrison wrote poetry, and he wrote lyrics. But ne'er the twain shall meet. Not to say that he didn't recite poetry over music "as lyrics." But that doesn't count; we're talking true sung lyrics vs. poetry.

Dylan writes mainly lyrics, and while they come close, they fall flat as poetry. Try it with Desolation Row, Visions of Johanna, It's Alright Ma or A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall. Great words. Horrible poems.
Click to expand...


Hmm... disagree a bit about the Dylan thing. (I know, Dylan becomes a social issue in intellectual discussion, untouchable, somewhat like AIDS, or going up to a guy in a wheelchair and dancing). I agree that songs with repetitive chorus' make horrible poems (never like repetition in poems...). Though I disagree about It's Alright, Ma...

"http://www.bobdylan.com/#/songs/its-alright-ma-im-only-bleeding" said:
Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
[...]
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only.
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It's could arguably be a very long poem, but what's wrong with that? (Remember Howl?). But other than that, it doesn't have a repetitive chorus. It just rhymes, but in my opinion it's not an annoying rhyme. The rhyme comes flowingly, intelligently. Arguably, this is a poem set to music. The music to this piece is not elaborate, the lyrics are more in the spotlight. Essentially, I am listening to this now, the music is 3 or 4 chords repeated over and over as Dylan speaks, he's not singing. To me it's equivalent to someone doing a spoken word while someone's banging a drum in the background. Same argument could be made with most of the songs on Bringing It All Back Home if you ask me. (Those are the songs I'm most familiar with... so I shall speak no further on his other material, as I have bits and pieces from each album, but few in entirity).
 
Lolita Twist

Lolita Twist

Rose-hustler
People have different tastes, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Though I'm curious, just for the sake of curiosity, why is it annoying to you?
 
S

slimedog

CRBSMILE said:
I have a CD- 'Pickin' On Zeppelin'-which I love. All blue-grass renditions of Zep songs. Tried to link it once to the, 'What Are You Listening To Now' thread. I had no luck finding it. Iam/was a big
Zppelin fan. It is so much a part of my youth that it's hard to let it go, or even talk serious shit. I saw Page live in 88', on his own, and I loved the show. I would not pay to go see a Zep. reunion show. And I hope they hold out and that they DON'T do it. One of the things that always sat sour with me about The Stones was that they never could seem to just give it a rest. I mean, does anyone remember the Jagger/Bowie fiasco of the 80's? I can't even remember the name of that song-I think I've effectivly blocked it out. It was horrible-just like the majority of 80's music.CRB:)
Click to expand...

Dancing in the Streets was the Jagger/Bowie version of a Martha & The Vandellas song-I don't think it was that bad but I'm in the minority.
 
homeless mind

homeless mind

Lolita Ginsoski said:
Yes, but I'd like to disect as to why it's shitty as a poem.
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Ah, back to biology class...anyone have an exacto knife? A frog? And nose plugs?

Mrs. G.: you've hit the proverbial brick wall. While I agree with some lyrics being poetry, many here don't. So get out your mortar "” and get ready to head to mordor with this one...
 
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Purple Stickpin

Purple Stickpin

Lolita Ginsoski said:
People have different tastes, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Though I'm curious, just for the sake of curiosity, why is it annoying to you?
Click to expand...

mjp said:
Because it's shitty as a poem? Just a guess.
Click to expand...

Yes.
Lolita Ginsoski said:
Yes, but I'd like to disect as to why it's shitty as a poem.
Click to expand...
OK (and forgive me for doing this to Bob). Consider Dylan's lyric meter relative to the sort of meter Buk (or other modern poet) might have used (and I've probably gotten this wrong):

Darkness
at the break of
noon
Shadows even the
silver
spoon...

In the song, the lines have cohesiveness that are immediate. "Darkness at the break of noon" is one breath, one thought that needs to be considered collectively. It sounds great sung in meter with the guitar, but as a line of poetry, to me it lacks the "unconventional" meter (as in my desecration above) that, to me, is poetry as opposed to lyric.

Yes, let us set aside iambic pentameter for the purposes of this discussion, for that concept of meter sullies my position. But Dylan's lyrics are modern and so is modern poetry, to cite the obvious.

Let me be clear that lyrics are no less valid, important, artistic (sorry, mjp), or any other superlative you want, than poetry. There are good and bad lyrics and good and bad poetry. I just keep them separate because that feels right to me.

I would add that it is more likely that a good poem could become lyrics than it would be for good lyrics to become a poem, but who really cares? :cool:
 
homeless mind

homeless mind

^

Now read Mr. Tambourine Man by Bob and tell me the same thing.

I double dare you.

That's just plain where the hog is washed.

My brain is about to explode! (Er, that happened years ago...)

As I will put it up (MTM) against any poem ever written!!!

From any BUK poem to The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock (and all the BUK fans who will ceremoniously shit on that poem can kiss my grits).

And, I'm getting ready to duck...then pass out viagra to those who don't get it.

:eek:

;)
 
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