Black friday

[LickTheStar]

There's something to be said for a paycheck as well.

I've been in Big Sur for the last five days so I was blissfully cut off from all news and media. No TV, no radio, no newspapers. I hadn't heard anything about this Walmart massacre until I read it here. I have to say that I'm not surprised.

Think I'll go back to Big Sur.

Yes, yes there is. If I wasn't so soft and weak from 18 years living in MA and another 5 years of college, I'd probably get a more work heavy job. But... I like air conditioning. A lot. Plus... Once you have a family to think about, a lot of your opinions can change, it seems.

Big Sur eh? Sounds nice. I would like a few days away from TV, but the wife... ah well, we'll always have Paris.

 

[pichon64]

I have gadgets too. Mainly video games, so I kind of understand. I spend at least as much time gaming as I do reading (usually gaming is before my son and wife wake up and reading is after they go to sleep).

(long sigh...) Man, I thought I was the only one smashing video games. I feel a little little less guilty now :o

Thanks, LickTheStar, thanks...

 

[LickTheStar]

Well with all these ornery old farts around here, the last thing they probably played was Pong. So they're in awe of our... 7331 skillz.

What did I just say?

 

[mjp]

They showed what sick fucking bastards they are when they thought Palin was a great choice for VP.

To drag this just a little further off course...

If the Republicans are really as conniving and premeditatedly evil as many seem to believe they are, the appointment of Palin could be seen as a "throw-away" candidate. "Hey, the writing is on the wall, we're losing this one. Just stick someone up there to stand next to McCain." That Americans latched on to her could have been as much a (terrifying) surprise to the Republican machine as it was to most of us.

 

[Never Try]

I stay away from Walmart altogether!

 

[CarversDog]

MJP, I know several registered Repubs who were horrified by the selection of Palin ... and yet I've spoken to a number of former Dem Hillary supporters who flipped for McCain after Clinton pulled out of the race and they thought Palin was an exciting choice. Makes one think about who many of those those people really were at those Palin rallies: disappointed Hill fans who jumped onto the ticket simply because a woman was on it.

 

[esart]

Is holing up in your house for weeks at a time without turning on the radio the same as living off the grid?

 

[CarversDog]

That's one definition, yes.

 

[APRM]

I work at a retail store, and I feel like shaking each person and say "don't do it, you don't need this", but I'd be wasting energy that can be well spent somewhere else... Consumerism is drive behind madness; the bums on the street are more alive then those poor people so attached/dependent on their plastic existence.

 

[mjp]

But the paycheck is good, right?

 

[marina del rey]

Consumerism is drive behind madness; the bums on the street are more alive then those poor people so attached/dependent on their plastic existence.

Too bad the bums on the street don't have computers or internet access like you do. Maybe then they could get online and preach to us about the evils of owning stuff...
...like computers, for example.

 

[CarversDog]

Do you honestly believe that access to a computer and internet access is a signifier of affluence, MDR? Seriously? For all of 2007, I lived in a residential hotel in North Beach, SF. I could not run my computer on the hotel's faulty early 20th century electrical wiring because it would (as it did before) fry my motherboard. So, when I could scrape a few dollars together I went to the local internet cafe to get online and check my e-mail and bank accounts. I was living a hand-to-mouth existence, one step away from being one of those "bums on the street." And yet I was the one who instigated this debate about consumerism and it seemed to penetrate a nerve with a few here.

 

[Father Luke]

Well. At least it wasn't me who called
the new guy a cunt this time.

--
Okay,
Father Luke

 

[APRM]

Too bad the bums on the street don't have computers or internet access like you do. Maybe then they could get online and preach to us about the evils of owning stuff...
...like computers, for example.

It's not really a matter of owning stuff really. The difference lies in what is said item's purpose? Too many people buy things to make them feel happy, and those are the one's I'm speaking of (blind consumerism). Yes I own a computer, but I went from having one, to not having one for many years and it never bothered me once. Do I need the computer to be happy? Not at all. I'm not preaching either, just stating my opinion. And to clarify my opinion further, I think people should learn to be happy with nothing, once they can be happy with nothing, they are less likely to be adversely affected by having nothing (a situation life deals us every now and again).

But the paycheck is good, right?

The paycheck sucks, but it pays for my school books.

 

[marina del rey]

Do you honestly believe that access to a computer and internet access is a signifier of affluence, MDR? Seriously?

I never said that it was a sign of affluence. I was merely pointing out the irony that I saw in the way that the message was delivered.

I just think that it is fallicous to argue that everyone who walks into a retail store to buy something is some blind brainwashed soulless zombie trying to placate their desire to own everything for the sake of owning it. Maybe we don't need everything we buy. But I don't think that wanting, buying, or owning things makes a person inherently bad.

I also don't buy into the notion that not having all of these things somehow builds soul or character. I completely understand what its like to be on hard times. I grew up very poor in a small town in the middle of nowhere. I've also lived in a tent and ate sand for a year in Iraq without any conveniences like showers or flushing toilets. What was the lesson that I learned from all of that? It sucks being poor and it sucks not having things. Am I soulless now because I worked hard to change things for myself? Nope.

I hear a lot of people telling me how glorious it is to be a desolate bum on the street unaffected by the evils of capitalism. I just wonder if the bums would say the same thing.

 

[CarversDog]

Well, just as MJP (perhaps correctly) accused me of taking a cheap and easy shot at Wal-Mart shoppers, I believe that "pointing out the irony ... in the way that the message was delivered" is another sure and easy shot at an obvious target. But I'm not here to argue or excoriate. When I lived in North Beach I interacted with and befriended a number of homeless people and came close to joining their ranks more than once; I came away from the experience tremendously appreciative of all that I have now ... which isn't much really: a nice apartment, a few sticks of furniture, a few hundred books (many of which I receive free, thankfully, through my work as a book reviewer), running heat and AC and water, the love of a good woman, and the computer that I am writing this on, of course. But I had to take a pretty hard fall to appreciate what little I have and I do not covet anything (well, most anything) that is outside my reach.

 

[marina del rey]

.. I came away from the experience tremendously appreciative of all that I have now ... which isn't much really: a nice apartment, a few sticks of furniture, a few hundred books (many of which I receive free, thankfully, through my work as a book reviewer), running heat and AC and water, the love of a good woman, and the computer that I am writing this on, of course..

Well, at least we can both agree that's all anyone really needs in order to be happy.

All the other stuff is just sometimes nice to have. :)

 

[CarversDog]

MDR, my late mother, ever the consumer and Home Shopping Network addict, had a saying that drove me up the wall: "It's not that I need it, it's that I want it."

 

[Gerard K H Love]

As a car salesman for three decades I learned to listen and hear those very sacred words. "I WANT IT" and the correct response is,"Yes you can have what ever you want just pick it out, it's yours." (then of course we would get it financed)
All consumer actions or bartering can be traced down to the very first sale. Which is what we now refer to as prostitution. Even monkeys barter for that.

 

[Father Luke]

I never said that it was a sign of affluence. I was merely pointing out the irony that I saw in the way that the message was delivered.

I just think that it is fallicous to argue that . . .

The word is actually paradox. If it were ironical, the
writer would have intended the paradox, or lie, and
therefore the argument would not be fallacious, which
you spelled wrong, btw.

Hope that helps.

--
Okay,
Father Luke

 

[CarversDog]

I read somewhere once that irony is one the most absued and misused words in the English language. "Isn't it ironic?" as Alanis Morrissette would incorrectly ask.

 

[marina del rey]

The word is actually paradox.

Agreed. 15 yard penalty for incorrect use of the word "irony".

... and therefore the argument would not be fallacious...

I'm referring to the general argument on this thread that somehow buying and having things = evil consumerism. It is my opinion that this argument does contain some flawed logic and is therefore fallacious (spelled correctly this time :o;))

If someone honestly believes that life is better lived simply without plasma TVs and iPods, that's cool. Nobody is going to make anyone buy that stuff.

But if another person gets some satisfaction out of buying some of the things that aren't completely necessary, I don't see the problem with that. I just don't get the leap in logic that the person who buys "unnecessary" things must be a mindless drone brainwashed by consumerism. I don't understand any contempt toward those people. That's the fallacy in my opinion. I don't have a problem with people buying things if it makes them happy. Everyone can let their pursuit of happiness take them wherever it may. Live and let live, that's all.

 

[mjp]

The paycheck sucks, but it pays for my school books.

Every day I wake up and thank the baby JESUS that there was no internet when I was 20!



I do wonder though, about this "consumerism" we're so happily discussing. I was thinking about it this weekend, because me and the missus drove to Palm Springs and dropped a boatload (for us) of dough on a couple of small paintings. We did that because we like to look at art, it makes us feel better. We think it makes our lives better.

But if someone's 90" plasma TV does the same for them, what's the difference?

Rubyred saw the paintings we were buying and thought they were ugly, which only demonstrates that art (or music or films or books) only has real value if you enjoy it. There may be some inherent value in a rare Bukowski book, even if you hate his writing, or in a Basquiat painting even if you think a 3 year old could have painted it, but there's inherent value in that plasma TV too, even if you don't watch it. Someone will trade you money or granola for it.

Is buying books, art, musical equipment or paint and canvas blind consumerism if those things make you feel better? Or is it only things that run on electricity? I don't get the difference. And I don't think the 90" plasma TV - or the person who buys it - is inherently bad.

 

[Bukfan]

I read somewhere once that irony is one the most absued and misused words in the English language. "Isn't it ironic?" as Alanis Morrissette would incorrectly ask.

Yes, there wasn't any irony in that song of hers. Big mistake on her part. I wonder how many thousands of times she has been told that since...:D

 

[chronic]

They're making 90" plasmas now? Where do I get one?

 

[CarversDog]

They're at Wal-Mart tomorrow morning only, Chronic. A 2 for 1 sale. The doors open at 5:00 AM. Make sure you wear your shoulder pads, cleats, and helmet.

 

[chronic]

I'm there... and I don't care who I have to kill to get one!

 

[harrystuped]

this a material life, what are humans supposed to do?

I do agree with most of your comments when referring that people do not buy why are they buying; but what if we were on the other side?

I think it's worst when people can't differentiate from I need it / I want it; but who's fault is it ?

 

[Pessimist]

I do wonder though, about this "consumerism" we're so happily discussing. I was thinking about it this weekend, because me and the missus drove to Palm Springs and dropped a boatload (for us) of dough on a couple of small paintings. We did that because we like to look at art, it makes us feel better. We think it makes our lives better.

Yeah, I've heard upper middle class types shit on people for wasting their money on X, when X is something they think is tacky, or comes from a big box store they hold in disdain, but if it's something sleek and classy, well, that's different, right?

My take is that most people feel a need to acquire (or "consume") things in order to feel happy. Maybe consumerism is this impulse taken to unhealthy extremes, where people buy goods and services not because they genuinely want them, but because they feel pressured to do so. Keeping up with the Joneses.

If I remember right it was Erich Fromm who suggested there are two ways of living in the world - there's "being" and "having". Maybe consumerism is the latter taken too far, so that your sense of identity and self worth comes from what you own, rather than the kind of person you are.

 

[falcune]

I do wonder though, about this "consumerism" we're so happily discussing. I was thinking about it this weekend, because me and the missus drove to Palm Springs and dropped a boatload (for us) of dough on a couple of small paintings. We did that because we like to look at art, it makes us feel better. We think it makes our lives better.

But if someone's 90" plasma TV does the same for them, what's the difference?

I agree with this, therefore it is good. Well put, mjp.