Black friday

I know I'm going to be called an elitist for even saying this but it's been proven time and time again that indulging in the arts (music, literature, art and architecture, dance, etc.) expands the human intellect and creates a craving for more, creates a hunger for intellectual nourishment that might otherwise be absent without such stimulation.

If even half of those people trampling another human being (back to the cogent point here) were taking their plasma TVs home to indulge in Charlie Rose or C-Span or The History Channel even four hours out of their average 28-hour viewing time per week, I would have no elitist beef. But that's simply not the case and the numbers bear it out. From the NYT, December 1, 2008 edition:

TOP-RATED BROADCAST TELEVISION SHOWS - November 17-23
(1 ratings point, per Nielsen Ratings, equals 1.14 million homes)
Dancing With the Stars 10.9
CSI 10.6
NCIS 10.2
CSI: Miami 9.8
Criminal Minds 9.7
The Mentalist 9.3
NFL: Colts/Chargers 9.0
Grey's Anatomy 9.0

That's just broadcast TV stats (the major nets: ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, etc.), don't make me drag out the cable stats, they're equally dumbed-down, and remember those rating points are per 1.14 million homes. If people were utilizing their electronics to expand their intellect ... well, hell yeah. But they aren't. What was it Howard Beale said in "Network"? "Television isn't the real thing, you people are the real thing." The internet and 500-channel TV lineups have afforded people the opportunity to use mass media to expand their minds in ways we had never even thought of before and look at what they are using it for instead ... jerking off to one mindless forensic crime show after another.

MJP, you and your wife probably got home after purchasing that art, poured a glass of wine after hanging the pieces on the wall, and sat and admired your acquisitions and it more likely than not led to at least one stimulating conversation. What sort of intellectual discourse follows an episode of "Dancing With the Stars"?

Ummm ... I'm not saying, incidentally, that I would support manslaughter for the privelege of watching Congressional sessions on a big-ass 90" plasma TV. Just wanted to clear that up.
 

chronic

old and in the way
The internet and 500-channel TV lineups have afforded people the opportunity to use mass media to expand their minds in ways we had never even thought of before and look at what they are using it for instead ... jerking off to one mindless forensic crime show after another.

It's funny... I get those 500 channels from my cable company and there's still hardly ever anything on that's worth watching. Seriously.

PS: You are an elitist

https://bukowskiforum.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
 

mjp

Founding member
MJP, you and your wife probably got home after purchasing that art, poured a glass of wine after hanging the pieces on the wall, and sat and admired your acquisitions and it more likely than not led to at least one stimulating conversation.
That's a bit PBS/NPR, but I hear ya. It was something like that. All I'm trying to say is we have a house literally stuffed with art and books and music and we have a really big expensive TV too. We don't watch Dancing With the Stars, but we watch some stupid shit sometimes. One doesn't necessarily preclude (or exclude, or however that goes) the other.

It's funny... I get those 500 channels from my cable company and there's still hardly ever anything on that's worth watching. Seriously.
Ain't that the truth.
 
I try not to watch TV that often, I firmly believe that the programs have reached a higher level of morbidity than porn, every god damn show is on it, the news, the sitcoms, the movies, they are all pushing it!

"the revolution will not be televised"
 

jordan

lothario speedwagon
fyi- there's a whole body of critical theory about how something can be ironic even if the original author didn't intend for it to be so.
 

Father Luke

Founding member
there is also theory against it. fyi. critical theory. whole bodies of it. on the internet. so it must be true. right?
 

jordan

lothario speedwagon
i guess i was just defending the use of the word "irony" in that context. it wasn't outright wrong, that's all. i've written many times about my ambivalent relationship to a lot of the critical theory research i did in graduate school, so it's not like i'm trying to spout off some dogma about theories of irony.

and i'm NOT saying this to be antagonistic, but i don't really see the utility of correcting someone like that, especially when they're not necessarily wrong.
 
Yes, there was irony in the fact that the original poster would have had no idea that by typing their words on a computer (which takes money to buy, incidentally, inferring that the OP is a high-end consumer and not a skid row bum) ... well, see, Jordan would perceive that as ironic but not in the literal sense of the word, mind you, but from the critical theory standpoint that something uttered can indeed be ironic even if the original author did not intend for it to reach a stage of irony and on that theory alone, Father Luke, you had no business correcting him.

WTF? Are we on the seventh level of semantics hell here? What defines "consumerism"? How many defintions of "irony" can you find? Where's Waldo?
 

Father Luke

Founding member
I was looking for my shoes. Doc Martens.

Anyone seen a pair a Doc's?

No?

How ironic.

--
Ookay,
Father Luke
 
Well, if you really care to get into double reference and complexity of meaning, I suppose that Jordan has a point.

"Allow me to introduce me date for the evening," he sighed. "This is Polly. Polly Semy."

"A pleasure to meet you. Any relation to Polly Semousness?"

"Oh, now you're punning me!" she said with a laugh.

I leaned forward, angry and drunk, martini glass swaying in my hand. "Are you being ambiguous?"
 

jordan

lothario speedwagon
Yes, there was irony in the fact that the original poster would have had no idea that by typing their words on a computer (which takes money to buy, incidentally, inferring that the OP is a high-end consumer and not a skid row bum) ... well, see, Jordan would perceive that as ironic but not in the literal sense of the word, mind you, but from the critical theory standpoint that something uttered can indeed be ironic even if the original author did not intend for it to reach a stage of irony and on that theory alone, Father Luke, you had no business correcting him.

WTF? Are we on the seventh level of semantics hell here? What defines "consumerism"? How many defintions of "irony" can you find? Where's Waldo?

well, it looks like i had no business defending what was clearly a misuse of the word "irony," especially with my ivory tower abstractions. i guess i'll never use the term "critical theory" again. sorry.

sometimes this forum makes me want to gouge my eyes out with rusty spoons.
 

vodka

Miss Take
if you guys are having a lot of consumer guilt you can pay my rent for me.

i'm sure it will make you feel much, much better.
 
I think we could collaborate on a killer article for Harper's, FL.

Jen, since I'm in Las Vegas I'm sure I could stage a telethon for you at one of the many failing casinos here (city budget is currently $1.9 billion in the red, they're lookin' for promotional gimmicks high and low).
 

Father Luke

Founding member
I think we could collaborate on a killer article for Harper's, FL.

Ever seen this:

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m24800


Jen, since I'm in Las Vegas I'm sure I could stage a telethon for you at one of the many failing casinos here (city budget is currently $1.9 billion in the red, they're lookin' for promotional gimmicks high and low).


How about feeding the poor. Las Vegas could make
a lot of money doing that.

But I digress.

--
Okay,
Father Luke
 

vodka

Miss Take
so apparently you feel that feeding the poor does not include me.

it's alright, my four kids and i don't need a home.

give that money to the poor.

but i digress.
 
Good God, Fl, no, I have never seen that letter and much of it is very powerful and forceful.

Also, I drove past many of the poor and homeless in North Las Vegas today on the quixotic quest to pick up my mom's ashes, as detailed at Carver's Dog, though the section about driving past the homeless shelter was shelved for word count but the rest of the grit is there.
 
Good start, my friend, good start. I would tie in the demise of the ownership society in America .... wihout reviving the debate in this thread, of course; another topic altogether. No small notation that the attacks in Mumbai were on a major financial center. I could go on for several graphs here but I think (hopefully) you get what I'm saying.
 

mjp

Founding member
Is it?

I would be wary of it unless it could be authenticated. It seems intentionally written to appeal to people in the U.S. who are predisposed to disliking the Bush cabal, like a juicy piece of propaganda. And some of the language doesn't ring true to an Arabic speaker...like starting a paragraph with "Anyway."

I wouldn't look for reinforcement of my ideas from someone like that even if it is genuine. It would kind of make me question whether what I believed was right if Saddam Hussein agreed with me. He wasn't the coolest guy at the party, if you get my drift.

Nothing is going to change what happened in Iraq. American people are not suddenly going to "wake up" and set things right. It can't be set right. It is what it is. Besides, American people - in the wide generalized sense - don't give a shit about Iraq, Mumbai, Bhopal, Rwanda, Appalachia or Detroit. They just don't, as sad and distasteful as that may sound. The best we can do is back out of Iraq slowly, smiling, nodding and waving and hope they don't kill too many of us when we turn to shut the door behind us.

In 30 years they will put W on a stamp and school kids will learn he was a great guy. That's how we do it. Look at what they teach kids in school today about Nixon. Nothing about felonies, just that he went to China and kissed some hands and shook some babies.
 

vodka

Miss Take
The best we can do is back out of Iraq slowly, smiling, nodding and waving and hope they don't kill too many of us when we turn to shut the door behind us.

agreed.
 

chronic

old and in the way
In 30 years they will put W on a stamp and school kids will learn he was a great guy. That's how we do it. Look at what they teach kids in school today about Nixon. Nothing about felonies, just that he went to China and kissed some hands and shook some babies.

You're right of course, but with Bush there won't be a single accomplishment that benefited the country that anyone will be able to point to. Not one.
 

Father Luke

Founding member
Is it?

I would be wary of it unless it could be authenticated.


Well, that's just it, isn't it? I checked, and checked.
I can't find anything other than a sudden wide
interest in a letter that has, assertively, been
squelched.


mjp said:
Besides, American people - in the wide generalized sense - don't give a shit about Iraq, Mumbai, Bhopal, Rwanda, Appalachia or Detroit.


That doesn't mean that I don't, or don't care to.

Still, it is an interesting letter. Because of it's
lack of authenticity, I've been stewing over it.
And it pisses me off I can't recall who first alerted
me to it.
 

vodka

Miss Take
they'll simply change up the history books to make it sound as though he did something positive in Iraq.
 
Look, we're all materialistic. If you say your not, your a liar. We all want security. Materialism ( in my opinion) doesn't go back decades but back to when we lived in caves. We were always jealous of what the other one had. Your cave was bigger than mine and I wanted it. You had two coconuts to eat and I had one, and I wanted it. You had two pineapples to eat and I had one, and I wanted it. You don't think when Buk was sleeping on a park bench he would have preffered his own house and car? You bet he did. The problem is when people own five houses and five cars. Then your just a prick.
 

Father Luke

Founding member
what about the do-not-call list?

Interestingly enough, jordan? What you may know,
and what a lot of people don't, is that the
National Do-Not-Call list excludes politicians.

That's why during an election you get so many calls
from politicians. They aren't included.

Politicians can call anyone on the
do not call list that they want to call ;)

Nice, huh?
 
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