Burning in Water
- Thread starter mjp
- Start date
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
yeah. Who is this buyer? Seems fishy....
Bill
Bill
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
Let me explain and the backpedal a bit.....
It seems a bit odd for a person with one feedback to just pop up out of nowhere and place a bid like this on a book like this. If you look at the history, the bid was placed early and was obviously very high as everyone that bid was just outbid by this person. Also, at $416, the book sold for almost as much as a comparable book on abe would sell for (there are two exact same copies for $450 on abe). I've been on ebay for over 10 years now and seen all kinds of trickery especially involving using shills to bid up the price of items and thereby protect them from selling for a price that the seller is unwilling to sell them for.
Still, the buyer is in Spain, so in fact it may be 100% legit. It would be pretty damning if the buyer and seller were in the same location (The seller is from Goshen, NY).
So, on second look, it looks more legit. Maybe we have a new Bukowski fan in Spain? Maybe this is someone that has been collecting a while, but just signed up on ebay, or opened up a new account.
The thing that I watch out for is a situation like this, but one where the exact same book pops up a month later (sometimes you hear that the buyer backed out, sometimes nothing). Another method is to have the shill bid the book up to a reasonable price and then contact the #2 bidder and say that the buyer backed out and that you will sell it for their bid price. Seems like a deal, unless you think about and realize that if the winning bidder kept out of it, the bids would probably not have gone as high. This is a way that a seller, using shills can drive the price up and get more than they would in a fair and open auction.
I had a person that is a well known bookseller (and one that dealt in Buk) sell me something on ebay. It did not arrive. I waited a few weeks and then called him. The ebay account gave me the name & number of the person that I knew well (Or someone else with his same last, uncommon name). I realized that not only was he the seller of this book, but actually was the number two bidder, having driven the winning bid price much higher than it should have gone. This type of bidding is illegal in many states and countries as it is considered fraud.
Still, the auction of "Burning in Water" does not seem to be a case like this. I probably typed too soon....
Plus, this seller was the one that sold the copy of "At Terror Street" a while back for $203, so it seems that they have a few really nice, early books!
Bill
It seems a bit odd for a person with one feedback to just pop up out of nowhere and place a bid like this on a book like this. If you look at the history, the bid was placed early and was obviously very high as everyone that bid was just outbid by this person. Also, at $416, the book sold for almost as much as a comparable book on abe would sell for (there are two exact same copies for $450 on abe). I've been on ebay for over 10 years now and seen all kinds of trickery especially involving using shills to bid up the price of items and thereby protect them from selling for a price that the seller is unwilling to sell them for.
Still, the buyer is in Spain, so in fact it may be 100% legit. It would be pretty damning if the buyer and seller were in the same location (The seller is from Goshen, NY).
So, on second look, it looks more legit. Maybe we have a new Bukowski fan in Spain? Maybe this is someone that has been collecting a while, but just signed up on ebay, or opened up a new account.
The thing that I watch out for is a situation like this, but one where the exact same book pops up a month later (sometimes you hear that the buyer backed out, sometimes nothing). Another method is to have the shill bid the book up to a reasonable price and then contact the #2 bidder and say that the buyer backed out and that you will sell it for their bid price. Seems like a deal, unless you think about and realize that if the winning bidder kept out of it, the bids would probably not have gone as high. This is a way that a seller, using shills can drive the price up and get more than they would in a fair and open auction.
I had a person that is a well known bookseller (and one that dealt in Buk) sell me something on ebay. It did not arrive. I waited a few weeks and then called him. The ebay account gave me the name & number of the person that I knew well (Or someone else with his same last, uncommon name). I realized that not only was he the seller of this book, but actually was the number two bidder, having driven the winning bid price much higher than it should have gone. This type of bidding is illegal in many states and countries as it is considered fraud.
Still, the auction of "Burning in Water" does not seem to be a case like this. I probably typed too soon....
Plus, this seller was the one that sold the copy of "At Terror Street" a while back for $203, so it seems that they have a few really nice, early books!
Bill
planahea
RIP
Thanks Bill,
That's a fine primer on how I may avoid sharks while swimming in eBay and I appreciate it.
The attachments below are why I am interested in that particular post.
I checked ABE and found the value spread for this edition from $450 to over $900. Since my copy is in true extra fine condition, including the mylar DJ, I expect the higher value may apply. My concern is the inscription to me on the title page. Do these personal non-celebrity inscriptions enhance, reduce or have no effect on a books value?
Also, would it help if the potential buyer knew why the inscription was there? Perhaps adding a bit of ambiance to the inscription may help too. This book was personally inscribed to me by CB as where many others to follow, at the request of JM, in appreciation for my continuing success in placing his works in bookstores across America as the top BSP publishers' representative for many years. (Eventually, I helped him pay for that BMW and the house he bought as he helped me to pay an ever increasing amount of income tax each year. *S*) Or do book collectors not care about non-celebrity ambiance?
Any guidance you can give me will be gratefully welcomed.
Bill
That's a fine primer on how I may avoid sharks while swimming in eBay and I appreciate it.
The attachments below are why I am interested in that particular post.
I checked ABE and found the value spread for this edition from $450 to over $900. Since my copy is in true extra fine condition, including the mylar DJ, I expect the higher value may apply. My concern is the inscription to me on the title page. Do these personal non-celebrity inscriptions enhance, reduce or have no effect on a books value?
Also, would it help if the potential buyer knew why the inscription was there? Perhaps adding a bit of ambiance to the inscription may help too. This book was personally inscribed to me by CB as where many others to follow, at the request of JM, in appreciation for my continuing success in placing his works in bookstores across America as the top BSP publishers' representative for many years. (Eventually, I helped him pay for that BMW and the house he bought as he helped me to pay an ever increasing amount of income tax each year. *S*) Or do book collectors not care about non-celebrity ambiance?
Any guidance you can give me will be gratefully welcomed.
Bill
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
Hi Bill;
I would say that as a rule, non celebrity inscriptions are not the best, but that being said, I think that we all would love to own a Buk book inscribed to JM, so association is extremely important. If I were the one selling this book, I'd mention the association and really make an issue of it. People need to know why the inscription is important. Plus, on ebay, it is very hit or miss. This book could sell for $600 or it could sell for $250. Just hard to tell. The $931 price on abe is David Gregor. He is always leagues higher in price than anyone else. I have never figured out why he would price his books 50% higher than everyone else, but he does, so the $931 price is not a real value. The $600 book from Arundel is NEAR FINE, while the $500, $450 & $450 are listed as FINE. That would tell me that Arundel is also overpriced and that the price is between $450 - $500.
I think with your inscription and the fact that it is signed twice may bring a price like these, but as this is ebay and the economy is slow, it would probably be tough to sell it for more.
Still, I hope that you are not selling this gem!
Bill
I would say that as a rule, non celebrity inscriptions are not the best, but that being said, I think that we all would love to own a Buk book inscribed to JM, so association is extremely important. If I were the one selling this book, I'd mention the association and really make an issue of it. People need to know why the inscription is important. Plus, on ebay, it is very hit or miss. This book could sell for $600 or it could sell for $250. Just hard to tell. The $931 price on abe is David Gregor. He is always leagues higher in price than anyone else. I have never figured out why he would price his books 50% higher than everyone else, but he does, so the $931 price is not a real value. The $600 book from Arundel is NEAR FINE, while the $500, $450 & $450 are listed as FINE. That would tell me that Arundel is also overpriced and that the price is between $450 - $500.
I think with your inscription and the fact that it is signed twice may bring a price like these, but as this is ebay and the economy is slow, it would probably be tough to sell it for more.
Still, I hope that you are not selling this gem!
Bill
mjp
Founding member
Bill W., I don't think a personalized inscription ever hurts value, and as Bill R. pointed out, it can actually increase the value somewhat.
I thought this particular auction was funny, considering the book appears to have been rained on or dunked in a toilet; "...notable foxing at top page edges, less so on leading edges; the book is very slightly cocked; there is an odd "rippling" of the boards adjacent to the quarter cloth, front and back..."
I'm often baffled by really trashed books getting a ton of bids on eBay, and sometimes selling for more than a clean copy would.
Maybe I'm just bitter because I like to pick up the older, valuable books in crappy condition for a fraction of what a mint copy sells for. ;)
I thought this particular auction was funny, considering the book appears to have been rained on or dunked in a toilet; "...notable foxing at top page edges, less so on leading edges; the book is very slightly cocked; there is an odd "rippling" of the boards adjacent to the quarter cloth, front and back..."
I'm often baffled by really trashed books getting a ton of bids on eBay, and sometimes selling for more than a clean copy would.
Maybe I'm just bitter because I like to pick up the older, valuable books in crappy condition for a fraction of what a mint copy sells for. ;)
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
mjp is 100% right. I did not remember reading the poor condition of this book. The buyer would have been better off getting a near perfect copy for the $450. Frankly, if he offered the seller on abe $425 or even $400 for their copy, they would probably sell it to him (and their copies are all listed as Fine or Near Fine). This buyer got a substandard quality book and paid at the top end of what he would have paid for a mint copy.
sad, really.
Bill
sad, really.
Bill
Hi Bill R,
I don't think that your description of the bidding there is correct. The times and bid amounts shown here show that the Spanish buyer placed different bids over a period. If anything is dodgy, its probably the bids by t***9 (179) which really drove the price up. The Spanish guy has then put in multiple 'feeler bids' to edge up to what was necessary to win the item. The last 2 bids are likey placed by sniping software, in my opinion.
In terms of condition, my copy which is an ex-library one, also has a slight rippling in the orange paper at the join with the cloth spine. But being as it was only ever taken out of the library once (in 1975), is a signed first and is in my opinion in fine condition, I'm still very happy with it. I imagine anyone would be if they paid what I did for it :D :eek:
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
HS,
I think that you may be right on this one.
It look slike T***S had a bid of $300.
sanawbar placed a bunch of incremental until he beat the $300 bid.
Then a few hours later T***S bid at least $400
sanawbar placed a bunch of incremental until he beat the $400 bid.
At this point, he seems to have put a protective bid on it high enough to guarantee a win.
Z***Z tried to bid at the last minute to take it (with a sniping program, maybe), but the protective bid was too high to allow Z***Z to take it.
SO, with HS's help, I'll correct my statement. It seems that the auction was all above board and there was a buyer in Spain that wanted this poor quality book enough to guard his bid to guarantee that he'd get it, even if he overpaid for it by at least $150 (which he did).
This is what that call "auction fever". The idea that you have to win, even if you overpay for an item that is not unique.
Ebay does not make it easy to spot shills anymore. Not only do they hide the bidders (If I knew that Z***Z was a real person that collects Buk it would make it clear that it was above board, but they mix all of the bid orders up so that it is very hard to follow the timeline.
I wonder how much it will sell for when it shows up in a few weeks...
Bill
I think that you may be right on this one.
It look slike T***S had a bid of $300.
sanawbar placed a bunch of incremental until he beat the $300 bid.
Then a few hours later T***S bid at least $400
sanawbar placed a bunch of incremental until he beat the $400 bid.
At this point, he seems to have put a protective bid on it high enough to guarantee a win.
Z***Z tried to bid at the last minute to take it (with a sniping program, maybe), but the protective bid was too high to allow Z***Z to take it.
SO, with HS's help, I'll correct my statement. It seems that the auction was all above board and there was a buyer in Spain that wanted this poor quality book enough to guard his bid to guarantee that he'd get it, even if he overpaid for it by at least $150 (which he did).
This is what that call "auction fever". The idea that you have to win, even if you overpay for an item that is not unique.
Ebay does not make it easy to spot shills anymore. Not only do they hide the bidders (If I knew that Z***Z was a real person that collects Buk it would make it clear that it was above board, but they mix all of the bid orders up so that it is very hard to follow the timeline.
I wonder how much it will sell for when it shows up in a few weeks...
Bill
It seems strange to me that a signed first would end up as a library copy, at least one in general circulation as opposed to being in a collection at the library. Sounds like a nice find though, hank solo!
planahea
RIP
BARFLY - The Paget Press bound galley
Bill R & mjp,
Thanks to both of you for shining some light onto my dark place re effect of book inscriptions on book value. I'm happy to hear the good news. Now I will not have to visit a book restorer and pay to have those CB inscriptions removed. *S*
Several of the BSP books in my collection are inscribed "Presentation Copy" on the colophon page. Does that effect price and if so how?
Since I like the amount of tuition this education is costing me, how do I determine the value of the BARFLY bound galley from The Paget Press shown below? It is number 4 of 10 galleys then available and I cannot find it listed anywhere. When I sent an image to Mike/chronic for listing on his website, he informed me that he didn't know such an object even existed.
Bill R, I have no intention of immediately selling any CB books from my rather extensive collection of BSP special editions, but I will have to some year soon. If I leave it all for my three children, they will hold an estate sale and congratulate themselves on having sold the entire lot at $2.00 per book. My personal library has over 5,000 specially selected volumes and several hundred galleys from my 42 years in book publishing. What do you, or anyone else, think would be a good way to eventually dispose of it to my children's greatest benefit? Although it's a fairly diverse book collection, eclectic some might say, it's strongest in the areas of art, art history and architecture. It also includes many volumes from fine small presses of the 70's and 80's. Of course, it also contains a copy of nearly every signed, limited and numbered book ever published by The Black Sparrow press no matter the author. I treasure all of my John Fante special editions almost as much as the Bukowski books.
I'll have to hold a wake for my book collection the day after finally disposing of it all. It will be like losing one of my children. Well, almost!
Anyhow, I do welcome all suggestions as I'm stymied over how best to maximize it's value when selling it off.
...and to think I'm getting all this good counsel tuition free! *S*
Bill
Bill R & mjp,
Thanks to both of you for shining some light onto my dark place re effect of book inscriptions on book value. I'm happy to hear the good news. Now I will not have to visit a book restorer and pay to have those CB inscriptions removed. *S*
Several of the BSP books in my collection are inscribed "Presentation Copy" on the colophon page. Does that effect price and if so how?
Since I like the amount of tuition this education is costing me, how do I determine the value of the BARFLY bound galley from The Paget Press shown below? It is number 4 of 10 galleys then available and I cannot find it listed anywhere. When I sent an image to Mike/chronic for listing on his website, he informed me that he didn't know such an object even existed.
Bill R, I have no intention of immediately selling any CB books from my rather extensive collection of BSP special editions, but I will have to some year soon. If I leave it all for my three children, they will hold an estate sale and congratulate themselves on having sold the entire lot at $2.00 per book. My personal library has over 5,000 specially selected volumes and several hundred galleys from my 42 years in book publishing. What do you, or anyone else, think would be a good way to eventually dispose of it to my children's greatest benefit? Although it's a fairly diverse book collection, eclectic some might say, it's strongest in the areas of art, art history and architecture. It also includes many volumes from fine small presses of the 70's and 80's. Of course, it also contains a copy of nearly every signed, limited and numbered book ever published by The Black Sparrow press no matter the author. I treasure all of my John Fante special editions almost as much as the Bukowski books.
I'll have to hold a wake for my book collection the day after finally disposing of it all. It will be like losing one of my children. Well, almost!
Anyhow, I do welcome all suggestions as I'm stymied over how best to maximize it's value when selling it off.
...and to think I'm getting all this good counsel tuition free! *S*
Bill
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
There was a library edition that was limited to only 221 copies and is ultra-rare, especially in FINE condition. I guess that when BSP ran out of those, libraries had no other choice as there was no other trade edition.
I believe that this release was the only edition that had a specific "Library Edition" from BSP.
Bill
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
Hi Bill W,
As far as selling your books, it would probably be best to contact a well known, reputable bookseller. I'll PM you....
That Paget Press galley is pretty. I saw a galley proof for Ham on Rye on abe for $1150. I would think that this would have that approximate value. I'm not a big fan of the galley proof, in general. Just too hard to protect and display.
All best,
Bill
Thanks Bill. Yet another exception to a permutation from Black Sparrow.:D
The copy of Burning I have is not a library edition as it has the blue cloth rather than the orange. But the description suggested it was an ex-library book and this turned out to be the case when it arrived.
My thoughts exactly.
My thoughts exactly.
Most of the "Presentation Copies" are of the most limited edition of the book, for example, a signed copy with art tipped in. I'm not positive, but the way Krumhansl is set up, the presentation copies and author's copies, etc. are always described as part of the final entry, which suggests that the presentation copies may have the same binding cloth as the lettered editions (can someone confirm?), or the editions with art tipped in. The fact that yours might be one of 5 or 10 or 15 presentaiton copies may command a premium, but you are already talking about what is likely a very valuble book.
Those special copies can hold some surprises, I'll bet. For example, there were 15 "Photographer's Copies" made of Horsemeat. Those 15 have glossy photogaphs as opposed to the matte photographs that were included in the regular issue and in the author's and publisher's copies.
By the way, that review copy of Barfly is gorgeous.:cool:
planahea
RIP
Thanks Purple Stickpin,
I have several of those special Presentation Copies you are referring to, but I was unclear in my question. I would like to know if one of the limited, signed and numbered editions has "Presentation Copy" instead of a number does it have an effect on its value. An example would be BARFLY, I have both a numbered copy and an inscribed "Presentation Copy" of the identical edition, which is worth more?
Bill
I have several of those special Presentation Copies you are referring to, but I was unclear in my question. I would like to know if one of the limited, signed and numbered editions has "Presentation Copy" instead of a number does it have an effect on its value. An example would be BARFLY, I have both a numbered copy and an inscribed "Presentation Copy" of the identical edition, which is worth more?
Bill
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
I am pretty sure that many of the presentation copies were overruns (meaning that I believe that BSP would make, say, 35 of the lettered in case there was a problem with anything that caused the book to be damaged. If that did not happen, they had extras). They are certainly more valuable than the numbered and probably the lettered too. Given the scarcity issue, lettered may be 300 copies, numbered 26 and presentation 5. If the presentation is identical in every way to a lettered it should be worth more as it is more limited.
That is just my opinion, but I think that the sales would play out the same way.
Bill
That is just my opinion, but I think that the sales would play out the same way.
Bill
I tend to agree with Bill, Bill. ;) Well, he got the numbered and lettered quantites turned around, but the point is taken. However, for BSP editions, the lettered copies are different from the numbered copies in that they have different spine cloth. The presentation copies are either like the numbered or the lettered, but they really aren't different, per se. All Barbara Martin did was to write "Presentation Copy" instead of "103" or "R." If you look at Krumhansl, the number of presentation copies typically ranged from 5 to about 15. So, it's true that there are fewer of these.
I'm assuming you are referring to the Paget Press edition of Barfly. Interestingly, Krumhansl does not list any presentation copies for this title. In any case, the presentation copy should command a bit more than the numbered.
I'm assuming you are referring to the Paget Press edition of Barfly. Interestingly, Krumhansl does not list any presentation copies for this title. In any case, the presentation copy should command a bit more than the numbered.
planahea
RIP
hank solo,
Here is one way BSP editions could end up in the strangest places. When this happened in 1986 it really pissed me off and I let John Martin know it. Nothing like having one of your publishers cutting you and your veracity off at the ankles. This is the only time I'm aware of that BSP overstocked inventory. Of course, it's not the only way for any publisher to "dump" inventory.
Bill
Here is one way BSP editions could end up in the strangest places. When this happened in 1986 it really pissed me off and I let John Martin know it. Nothing like having one of your publishers cutting you and your veracity off at the ankles. This is the only time I'm aware of that BSP overstocked inventory. Of course, it's not the only way for any publisher to "dump" inventory.
Bill
mjp
Founding member
It sounds like your collection is large enough to go to an auction house, rather than to a bookseller. If I was trying to maximize my take on a substantial collection like that, that is the route I would go.
Even taking the typically high auction house fees into account, I think you will net less from a bookseller, who has to make you an offer low enough to be able to profit from higher retail prices. Maybe that's not the case across the board, but I would examine every option.
You have some extremely rare primo stuff there, and it would make for an exciting auction. And exciting auctions usually mean higher prices realized. Then again, auctions are funny things, and they can tank, too. But you always have the option of taking unsold auction items to a bookseller as a back up.
Even taking the typically high auction house fees into account, I think you will net less from a bookseller, who has to make you an offer low enough to be able to profit from higher retail prices. Maybe that's not the case across the board, but I would examine every option.
You have some extremely rare primo stuff there, and it would make for an exciting auction. And exciting auctions usually mean higher prices realized. Then again, auctions are funny things, and they can tank, too. But you always have the option of taking unsold auction items to a bookseller as a back up.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
PBA (Pacific Book Auction) is the house that seems to get the most Buk stuff. Their Edwin Blair sale sold very well, but that had other items like signed Kerouac books. The Thomas Groff sale tanked and most people that had money could walk away from the auction buying almost any book at about 50% of the value. It was like a fire sale. I think that the best way to sell books like this at auction is to let them out slowly if you are heavy in to one author. If your books run the full range of modern firsts then PBA may be a great route.
Here is an article on the Blair Sale:
http://www.liveauctiontalk.com/free_article_detail.php?article_id=669
And the Groff Auction (this one actually mentions this forum and links here)
http://realitystudio.org/bibliograp...kowski-and-the-ronan-sale-of-beat-literature/
Best,
Bill
Here is an article on the Blair Sale:
http://www.liveauctiontalk.com/free_article_detail.php?article_id=669
And the Groff Auction (this one actually mentions this forum and links here)
http://realitystudio.org/bibliograp...kowski-and-the-ronan-sale-of-beat-literature/
Best,
Bill
Okay, I can't resist any longer. I know cirerita snagged a great deal on that issue of Story, but I think this was a pretty good deal...
I placed 3 bids, and it is much better than the photo suggests.
:eek:
That is a decent deal, but how do you have three bids and win it for $0.01? Did you open at a ha' penny? ;)