Classical Music Anyone?

[nervas]

Because of my addiction to Buk I went all crazy at tower records on Sunset blvd one day and bought everything I could afford by Tchaikovsky. That was like in 1995, I listened to about 3 of the 10 cds I bought. (They were like $3.99 each, so looking back it was probably just random orchestras performing Tchaikovsky, but anyway.) I liked them and appreciated them, but today couldn't name one movement, or piece if you asked me to. Beyond that, I really never gave classical music much more of a chance. A girl I dated for years in the late 90's could play anything on piano and would try and quiz me on what classical piece it was, and though I enjoyed watching and listening to her play I could never name anything. But anytime she played happy birthday, or twinkle twinkle little star I was pretty quick at recognizing it.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

That's a bit like buying 10 Journey albums and dismissing rock & roll because you couldn't remember any of the song titles.

OK, Tchaikovsky is more akin to Jefferson Airplane than Journey, but you know what I mean.

And if Buk inspired your classical purchases, why weren't they one of the three B's that he writes about fairly often? Bach, Beethoven and Brahms, brother.

 

[nervas]

Well, I knew the names Bach and Beethoven, so I thought I was being all indie and going for the unknown. I didn't mean to dismiss it, but it never became something I wanted to hear again and again. I still enjoy it, if it happens to be playing somewhere that I may be(as un-often as that is.) However the only classical music I have on my iPod is what many would consider Beethoven's greatest hits and I rarely if never put that on. In my CD/vinyl collection all that exists is the Tchaikovsky cd's I bought 15 years ago and I rarely go digging those out. But yes, I get your point, and was not at all trying to dismiss classical music, only giving my experience with it, and purple now you're making me wish that girl I dated so many moons ago was sitting in my living room playing some classical music on her piano.

 

[Johannes]

Remembering Cage just for 4:33 is like remembering Bukowski just for The Fiend (for example).

The context of that piece and the career of one of 20th centuries great musical minds should not be glossed over so lightly.

Listen!

That's probably true.

I simply picked 4'33 for the effect and have to admit, I don't know his other works, except of glimpses here and there.

 

[HiddenFormula]

This symphony by Jean Sibelius is absolutely stunning...really emotive music.

[This video is unavailable.]

Oh now this is a classic:

[This video is unavailable.]

 

[Erik]

I would advise starting out with anything and everything by Franz Joseph Haydn.
He has a simplicity to him that helped me get more into classical music.

 

[Black Swan]

I hope you two aren't arguing.

GERARD,you should know that Ponder would argue with a stop sign. I've witnessed that on a few occasions.:)

Johannes, I've listened to Cage's 4'33 and waited patiently until the end. I do not believe that I'll do it again, but I got it.

I have been listening to Angele Dubeau and her band La Pieta, perform
Les Beautes Du Diable. I can't find the copy buttom on Ponder's computer, with all that dutch, so I'll copy the link by hand.
I had to hear 10 times.

 

[ROC]

Johannes, I've listened to Cage's 4'33 and waited patiently until the end. I do not believe that I'll do it again, but I got it.

You do it almost every day. It's just that sometimes you aren't listening.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

GERARD,you should know that Ponder would argue with a stop sign. I've witnessed that on a few occasions.:)

Not to mention Dylan. ;)

 

[number6horse]

I have an appreciation for classical music but I'm no expert - especially regarding the time frames: Classical, Romantic, etc.. The Three B's plus Mozart, Brahms, Vivaldi, and Chopin all do it for me. Someday I am going to get off my ass and listen to all 9 of Beethoven's symphonies in order, giving attention to each one and even reading up on the context and importance of each work beforehand. I feel like I owe this to myself - he was one of the most important artists in history and I'm just not up to speed on his major works.

Among 20th Century composers, I love Aaron Copland, despite his "Fanfare For The Common Man" and "Billy The Kid" overture being co-opted by television commercials. During the "Un-American Activities" nonsense of the early 1950's, he told Sen. Joe McCarthy to kiss his gay Jewish ass (in so many words) and refused to co-operate. So he gets eternal street-cred for that, as the kids say.

 

[roni]

[...] "4'33" [...] after watching it, it wears thin [...]

Haven't seen this particular version before, you link too. Will do in about 4 minutes and 33 seconds.

But I do know the piece and I Do Love the idea! Not for reasons of music, of course, but for it being a great and new idea and being an art-form. I've also listened to a part of his slowest composition, which is performed in Halberstadt, Germany at the moment. It was a very interesting experience. (Well, I was lucky to be there, when they played a tone that sounded harmonic. It sure can be annoying to arrive there, when a dis-harmonic sound or even a pause is played.)

It's the oppositeland version of Metal Machine Music!

in a way, yes! definitely!


nervas:
You sure remember the very beginning of Tchaikovsky's piano-concerto #1 (b-minor) Op23, which has been in at least a dozen movies (e.g. Harold & Maude).

Hiddn:
yeah, I like Sibelius too. It's like slowly wandering through an icy winter landscape.





For all fans of Bukowski who are interested in classical music because of him and don't know where to start:

I know myself, it's intriguing to try the pieces he himself mentioned. You start with these pieces with a different feeling and expectation than whith a 'random' or other piece. And in MANY cases this worked for me very well! But in Some, it just DIDN'T.

What I want to say is: if someone is new to classical music, recommendations by Bukowski can be difficult. (depends on your own favor/feeling of course.) In my case (e.g.): Shostakovich is 'all right' in my book, but he didn't get through to me. There are others praised by Buk, that I don't liked too much. Even with the allmighty Mahler I had a problem at my very first encounter! Now I love him. But wouldn't recommend for a starting.
Starting should be EASY. Always. Shostakovich or Mahler or Stockhausen or Cage aren't easy. Beethoven is (minus the late Violin-quartetts) and Mozart is and Schumann and Brahms and Rachmaninow and Tchaikowsky are - and NONE of them is 'simple' or meaningless! They are HIGH LEVEL composers! But they are far more accessible for a newbie than some others.

 

[chronic]

Re; 4`33. Maybe not so original. Did Cage come up with this before or after John Lennon's 1969 Two Minutes of Silence from Life With The Lions?

Smacks of gimmickry to me... not music in any sense of the word.

 

[ROC]

4'33" is from 1952.

 

[chronic]

Okay, so John Lennon stole it from John Cage.

It's still a gimmick.

 

[ROC]

You know what's a gimmick?

A thousand or so people all sitting quietly, expected not to cough, sputter, fart or move while a suited-up orchestra trot out tired 'classics'. A ritual where one claps at the end of a piece but not in between movements. Where disapproval is no longer an option for the audience.

We accept (in popular music forms) just about any sound/noise/statement as part of a musical whole. But classical music is bound by strict and invisible measures to fulfil ones expectations; beautiful, calming music... serious music.

Who says?

By simply creating the possibility of a formal, strictly delineated four minutes and thirty three seconds where people are free to observe the ludicrous nature of concert practices or where one can really switch on the listening apparatus (it's never just the ears), Cage pointed at a very obvious and funny moon. But most people make the mistake of looking at his finger.

 

[chronic]

I guess I just can't get my eye to move from his finger then.

He may be making an artistic statement here, but it ain't music. Music, even when it lacks rhythm, melody or harmony (freeform jazz anyone?), still requires cadence. Silence has no cadence, just... silence.

 

[ROC]

Music, even when it lacks rhythm, melody or harmony (freeform jazz anyone?), still requires cadence. Silence has no cadence, just... silence.

1. There is no such thing as silence (that's partly the point)

2. No sounds occur without rhythm; any sound that follows another sound necessarily has a rhythmic/temporal relationship with the first... the third with the previous, etc.

3. Music requires cadence? I disagree. Cadences are nice though.

4. Some of my favourite music has no melody or harmony - what of percussion music?

5. Each to their own though, huh?

 

[mjp]

There is no such thing as silence...

Sure there is. An anechoic chamber. Very disconcerting place for humans.

4"²33" is definitely a gimmick, the same way a blank canvas on a gallery wall is a gimmick. Though I'm sure the orchestras who show up to "play" it enjoy being paid to sit there and do nothing, they would probably prefer to play some music. Of any kind. Lack of notation does not a composition make.

Conceptual art (like 4"²33") is bullshit. It only continues to exist because people have been suckered into thinking that artists know something they don't. That they are clued in to some secret knowledge that they as a mere mortal could never posses. But the real secret is, you are much smarter than most artists.

 

[Black Swan]

it is a gimmick to me as well . I definitely do not need to sit in a concert room to experience this again and again. You get it once and that's it. You use it as a reminder when things get too weird, when you forget to hear, see or feel.
That's not music.
Then again you have these artists that decide to cash in on that, to distance themselves from their public and try to sell you an intention or a concept without putting in the work.

 

[ROC]

In 1951, Cage visited the anechoic chamber at Harvard University. Cage entered the chamber expecting to hear silence, but he wrote later, "I heard two sounds, one high and one low. When I described them to the engineer in charge, he informed me that the high one was my nervous system in operation, the low one my blood in circulation."

mjp - you are quite wrong on this - wherever you are, there is sound. One never experiences real silence while alive.

And all art is conceptual on some level; it just depends where you set your tolerance levels.

Orchestras are not exactly lining up to play contemporary American music; most classical musicians hate anything written after world war one.
Anyway, any program containing 4'33" would have several other works on it too.

"...you are much smarter than most artists" - no doubt you are right there.

"I definitely do not need to sit in a concert room to experience this again and again. You get it once and that's it."

Sure. But who suggested you have to experience any work of art more than once?

 

[mjp]

mjp - you are quite wrong on this - wherever you are, there is sound. One never experiences real silence while alive.

Well, deaf people might argue that, but I won't. ;)

 

[ROC]

What?

 

[Black Swan]

"I heard two sounds, one high and one low. When I described them to the engineer in charge, he informed me that the high one was my nervous system in operation, the low one my blood in circulation."

although, I like this.;)

 

[ROC]

:)

Let's say he was not a composer.

Let's say that 4'33" is not a composition... Not even music.

Let's say Cage was a clever, creative man who tried his best to create situations where people thought about the sounds that enter their heads, the nature of music and the nature of the creative endeavour.

If he never did anything else, he would be remembered for his Sonatas & Interludes. The guy created an American/Balinese tuned/untuned percussion ensemble playable by one pair of hands! The prepared piano.


I mean, what the hell is anyone really doing.

 

[hoochmonkey9]

I look at things like Cage's 4'33 and Duchamp's R. Mutt Urinal to see if they work for me. if they do, great. if they don't, ah well.

it doesn't matter to me if they are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. what matters is what I get from it. if I think bullshit, then it's bullshit. and vice versa. and if they fool me, good for them. but history is smarter and has a longer memory than me and I'll leave it to time to sort out the frauds.

or something.

 

[number6horse]

I admit conceptual art may be bullshit, but sometimes I find certain works to be useful bullshit. That is, like with the case of 4'33, I like being reminded to step out of the routine of listening and to examine the process of listening itself. And what I discover is Cage demonstrating how the audience "participates" in the performance of any and every piece of music. Sure its gimmickry, but there is a point to it.

In my opinion, what is really at work here, are basic questions like What is performance, What separates composer and composition and so forth. The first person who did this for me personally (and some of you are going to spit out your coffee laughing when I say this so prepare) was the comedian/performance artist Andy Kaufman. Most everything that man did was to explore the question of why we laugh and the nature of what we laugh at.

In short, if it makes you re-examine the process and leads you to an insight, then it's worthwhile, I think. On the other hand, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and a crucifix in a jar of piss is just a crucifix in a jar of piss.

 

[mjp]

Let's say he was not a composer.

Okay, you're getting warm...

Let's say that 4'33" is not a composition... Not even music.

Which is a simple statement of fact - you are seeing the light!

The guy created an American/Balinese tuned/untuned percussion ensemble playable by one pair of hands! The prepared piano.

Ooh! What a shame. You were doing so well, then right back to gimmicks.

Well, there's always next time. Until then, remember kids; the emperor wears no clothes.

Thank you.



That concludes my modern dance performance for today. $75 dollars please.

 

[Gerard K H Love]

........ The first person who did this for me personally (and some of you are going to spit out your coffee laughing when I say this so prepare) was the comedian/performance artist Andy Kaufman. Most everything that man did was to explore the question of why we laugh and the nature of what we laugh at.
......

Yes Andy Kaufman was great right up to and a little bit into his wrestling. But just like the crucifix joke, he got to be too offensive and lost audience. Without an audience why are there? I would do not want to pay $75.00 to watch some genius make a point unless I get a good laugh out of it.

Andy Kaufman was mostly great. Tony Clifton too.

 

[mjp]

That concludes my modern dance performance for today. $75 dollars please.

I would do not want to pay $75.00 to watch some genius make a point...

Security, please remove our friend from the auditorium at once!

 

[Gerard K H Love]

At least I said genius.