Creative writing - and bass players. And drummers.

[esart]

Sorry I went away from this thread for a while, but who really gives a shit what drummers I like anyway? I'm sure ya'll were waiting with bated breath...

Not in any particular order:

Sly Dunbar
Jan Kincaid
Pete Thomas
Steve Gadd
Stewart Copeland
Prince
Stevie Wonder
Bernard Purdie
Carlton Barrett
Sheila E.
Omar Hakim
John Bonham
and probably Tony Thompson.

I'm definitely not a fan of Colaiuta. I have a joke with other drummers that he plays in "1." But I do like Bozzio and Bruford, probably Bruford over Bozzio just because ya gotta respect his creativity more and he came before him, but Bozzio certainly is amazing - but not for the Zappa stuff. I just don't like Frank Zappa. And while I have been to many Dead shows, I've never been impressed with Mickey Hart other than the fact that the groove is absolutely distinctive. That doesn't mean it's great though.

But I'm picky, obviously. If someone can't lay down a steady back groove, then they aren't a drummer to me, and I have seen Vinnie play live on many occasions. He can't do it. He's best when he's playing with a double bass, a piano, and soloing through the majority of the "song." 4/4 is only happening when someone else is taking a solo, otherwise he's in 1.

Oh, and I like Erskine okay too.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

I don't have Colaiuta high on my list, but I suspect he could lay a steady back beat, but stylistically, that's not his thing. Or maybe he can't, I dunno. As you say, he's best in certain situations - he might have done well with Ornette Coleman's Free Jazz. Regarding the "in 1" thing; it works in certain applications. For example, many of those '72-'74 Dead jams, particularly on Playin' in the Band, have a distinct "1" feel. Sure, the "10" shows up at times, but often there's a very distinct lack of meter, and yet there's a very distinct form. Speaking of which, I consider Bill Kreutzmann to be a big reason why I like that period; Mickey was out of the group from February '71 until October '74. I'd take Billy over Mickey any day, but in hindsight, they're something of a matched set.

One of the most simple things Bruford did stands out to me as one of his best ideas. In the studio version of Crimson's Starless, there's that slow minor blues middle section that's in 13. Eight bars of 13 followed by 4/4 for the turnaround. Bruford plays the wood blocks in 4 over the 13, so he plays 26 bars of 4 over the 8 bars of 13, and thus the wood block hits fall on

| 1, 5, 9, 13 | 4, 8, 12 | 3, 7, 11 | 2, 6, 10 |
repeat
and then on 1 of the 4/4. Simple yet brilliant.

 

[mjp]

One of the most simple things Bruford did stands out to me as one of his best ideas.

And of course simplicity is the most difficult thing to achieve. In any kind of art.

But maybe in music especially, since it takes a lot of work to become a musician, even a mediocre one, so the idea that you should stand (or sit) there and do something simple rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

 

[esart]

That's why I say Bruford was a creative guy. He could have complicated the shit out of that, but he didn't. We all know he's capable of playing anything, but he played what sounded good with the music, since there was already a lot of complication with the guitar parts and the turnarounds. He turned those Crimson songs upside down when he wanted, otherwise he made those repetitive, off time signatures groove. Then there were moments when he'd downright scare you in the empty spaces, and come back and play in 5 (over Fripp playing 7 or 9) and it would all seem to work as if it was 4/4. Brilliant shit. Just like what you said. You have a good memory (or maybe you listened to it very recently) to know the exact time signatures going on there. I used to know them way back when, but I probably haven't heard those records in 20 years or more.

I remember even in the 1980s I loved them. Three of a Perfect Pair, I think I bought that thing NEW! I must have been, what, 16 years old? Wow! Ha! Being that age, I, of course, was in love with the car song, Dig Me.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Well, it was bound to happen. This isn't the studio version I wrote about, but Bruford is just an animal back there. This is taken from a performance for French TV aired on March 22, 1974; about four months before they recorded the studio version.

[This video is unavailable.]

 

[mjp]

I think you're both out of your minds.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

I have no argument for that.

 

[esart]

Not my favorite performance of their. I will find it one day and post it. I forgot how annoying Fripp can sound live.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Different strokes and all that...I have around 30 live Crimson shows and I'll likely be pulling the trigger on this in the not too distant future: http://store.nexternal.com/dgm/king-crimson---the-road-to-red-box-set-p1372.aspx
As essential as Dylan or the Beatles in my book.

 

[mjp]

Damn. Well, you're a better man than I. I'm not sure I could listen to the same 25 or 30 songs played live over 20+ discs. Even if I loved the band. Even if I was in the band.

Of course having said that, if someone put out a 25 disc set of a Wailers tour at their peak, I would buy it. I don't know if I'd ever listen to all of it, but I guess I get it. I mean I know I get it. Shit, I have a seven disc set of the Funhouse sessions. So yeah. Carry on.


I wasn't going to say anything about that guitar sound in the video, but since Ms. Es opened the door...I have to say I've never heard anyone make a Les Paul sound worse than that. The two tortured notes he plays for five or six minutes in the middle of that thing...it's really kind of shocking. That, I don't get.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

I think the live shows, at least in part, suffer from a lack of sonic depth, and you can tell better from Wetton's bass in what I linked to. Wetton's bass was a monster in the better recordings I do have, so the lack of timbre in the viddy I posted certainly affects Fripp's tone adversely. But I'll spare you the studio version.

But that middle section is a common complaint from those who aren't overly familiar with Crimson. The point of it all is to build tension; and it's not two notes, it's unison passages of several notes spaced out over the four times through the changes. By the final pass, the whole band has ramped it up.

After the fourth pass, it interludes, then the frenetic section is a double-time recapitulation of the middle section (in 13) with 4/4 breaks at the turnaround. The dearth of tone you refer to in the middle section may also be a purposeful interjection to more greatly highlight the distorted madness of the recapitulation. The point of the tune in general is to paint a stark reality, as it were. You can't have brutal intensity without its antithesis.

 

[mjp]

You seem to be suggesting that I think the middle of that song is shit because I don't understand it, which is insulting (but it did make me laugh).

 

[Purple Stickpin]

That was written after 2 AM; almost anything I'd have written could have been construed as insulting. Let me put it this way: when played live, that guitar part may not have sounded quite as crappy as the recording suggests. Then again, Fripp chose that tone for a reason, which as a listener, is good enough for me.

Without getting overly philosophical about the song (but I will), at the point this song was coming together, Fripp was very close to disbanding the band and possibly quitting music altogether (source: online diary entries and CD liner notes). My belief is that the song Starless is about Fripp's journey in music and his current future state within the industry.

The first part is early success, dazzling day, dreamy and melodic (if somewhat forlorn, presaging what is to come). Second part, with the lame guitar sound, reflects the banality of his current state within the industry, and the third, crazy part reflects what is soon to come - the breakup of his band (likely for good is what he seemed to think at the time) and his departure from music.

So if it sounds like crap, it may have been because he wanted to reflect feeling like crap.

I realize that this reads as total apologist for Fripp. But he's got great tone in so many other pieces of that era that it's hard to imagine him choosing a thin sound for any reason other than it was transmitting what he wanted to transmit.

 

[mjp]

So it is Fripp's Ein musikalischer Spaß. Why didn't you say so? ;)

Fripp chose that tone for a reason, which as a listener, is good enough for me.

Only because you already respect him, otherwise it might not be good enough for you.

Prince chooses his tones for a reason too. But since you don't respect him because he's black as a guitar player, you aren't inclined to think any of his guitar playing is worthwhile.

To you, the middle of that song is very deep and meaningful. To me it's just bad "music." Problem is, we're both right. As Woody Allen said about fucking his wife's adopted daughter, "The heart wants what the heart wants."

Or something.



The black thing is a joke fer chrissake, calm down. I'm only here to amuse myself. If I lived in Boston I'd probably hate black people too.


Still kidding, still kidding! Put down the gun...

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Only because you already respect him, otherwise it might not be good enough for you.

True. But I shouldn't have said that the tune was about what I proposed, because Fripp didn't write it. So, the words mean something to Richard Palmer-James, who worte them, but I get the sense that Fripp mirrored his experience in the music industry against the words, so it came to mean something like I proposed to him.

Not sure of the relevance of the rest of your post.

 

[d gray]

If someone can't lay down a steady back groove, then they aren't a drummer to me,

i've heard him say this before but from the gospel of wiki -

"Copeland is also noted for his strong emphasis on the groove as a complement to the song, rather than as its core component. He once drove this point home at a drum clinic: Copeland announced that he would show the audience something "that very few modern drummers can do," and proceeded to play a simple rock beat for two minutes."

 

[mjp]

Not sure of the relevance of the rest of your post.

Oh, maybe you don't remember discussing Prince.

As for Prince, I find his music horribly annoying, and his thin guitar playing is the only chance he had for me to redeem himself; instead, he buried himself deeper with his mask of ability. So, the fraud comment is solely related to his thin, fake guitar tone.

I'm relating your defense of Fripp to your disdain for Prince. In comedy that's known as a "callback." It's really an art form in itself. Among comedians.

See, to me, the only time Fripp did anything remotely different was when he made those vinyl sleeping pills with Brian Eno. And there was nothing remarkable about the guitar, specifically in that music, or in any of the music he's ever made. He's always played within accepted norms.

That's the subjective view of someone who thinks Fripp is vastly overrated. Just like your view of Prince. My conclusion that both are valid opinions was the point. You will never convince me that Fripp was extraordinary in any way, and I'll never convince you that how Prince's guitar sounds isn't the point of his music. And that's fine.

Because I know that an objective comparison of the two leaves no doubt as to who was/is the most musically forward, risk-taking, influential and talented. Fripp is not in Prince's class, musically. You can compare them as guitar players all you'd like, but as I suggested in the original post about Prince, that is a small part of the whole. Like discussing Mozart's technique as a pianist.

The Woody Allen quote is relevant because taste in music is just like love. You might see two people walking down the street and wonder what she sees in him, or what he sees in her. But to them, it makes sense. We don't all have to like the same music, we can't all like the same music.

I find no resonance in your excuse for why Fripp's guitar sounds like a 13 year old picking out her first guitar in a music store in that video because I don't go in for analyzing rock and roll too much. If that is rock and roll. Great music is all about emotional response. When you dissect things that have an emotional impact on you, you destroy their ability to have any continuing emotional impact on you. Like taking apart a joke to determine why it's funny. Once you do that, it isn't funny anymore.

You've played on records, right? When you listen to them, do you hear the music or do you think about what you did in that certain part, or what kind of beard the engineer had? It's like that. Too close. Ruins everything.

Thank you for your kind indulgence.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Oh, maybe you don't remember discussing Prince.

Of course I do. I was referring to the relevance of your "humor" as to why I don't like him. Perhaps relevance isn't the right word.

 

[mjp]

My "humor" is an acquired taste, and I understand it isn't for everyone. It isn't even for me, sometimes, but I'm stuck with it.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Notwithstanding all that, your previous points aren't totally off the mark. Well...

He's always played within accepted norms.

If that were the case, Porcupine Tree and The Mars Volta would be Top 40.

Logically, it would follow that

I have to say I've never heard anyone make a Les Paul sound worse than that.

is now the accepted norm?

You will never convince me that Fripp was extraordinary in any way, and I'll never convince you that how Prince's guitar sounds isn't the point of his music.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. And I am fully aware that Prince's guitar sound isn't the point of his music. The problem for me is, that's the only thing that has a remote chance of making it listenable, and it fails. For me.

Because I know that an objective comparison of the two leaves no doubt as to who was/is the most musically forward, risk-taking, influential and talented.

If I cared so much about such things, my musical tastes would be bound to the philosophy and execution of said philosophy by the musician rather than by the end product. The only musician that sways me this way is Dylan. In some ways he's much bigger than his music. And listening to some of his stuff is part and parcel of who he is and what he was when he was doing it.

Fripp is not in Prince's class, musically.

We can certainly agree on that point. :rolleyes:

 

[Short Bus]

That this Darryl Hall Fripp collaboration sounds a lot like Prince.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

That's vastly overrated.

I've been reluctant to post additional musical examples, but since you set the precedent.

Here's an example of Fripp's acoustic work that adheres to the "accepted norm:"


I thought this was a fun thread about creativity and then, bassists and drummers. My hackles tell me I should go away. My frantic brain tells me otherwise.

 

[mjp]

this Darryl Hall Fripp collaboration sounds a lot like Prince.

Prince who? Sounds like dogshit to me.

no doubt Purple Rain will result as an example of how high school angst is so very important to us as adults...

A) Rock and roll is not for the adult part of you. B) Purple Rain? Is that all you got? You realize that's a soundtrack, right? Even as a soundtrack it's got two wickedly original songs on it, Darling Nikki and When Doves Cry. Original in the context of 1984. "Original" meaning nothing else on earth sounded like them at the time.

Prince - like Mozart and Bob Marley - was an amalgamation of his influences, filtered through the lens of a gifted musical communicator.

I get it, you love King Crimson. If you consider them to be wholly original and groundbreaking though, I don't see it. The world was lousy with progressive rock in those days, and now it's all gone. You don't hear it anywhere. Because it didn't change anything. If just existed, then it died. RIP.

But I heard a great record today, a Beatles bootleg of studio recordings from 1966-1967. Now those motherfuckers were out on the edge doing things no one ever heard before. I got the record from a King Crimson fan, oddly enough. ;) Thank you!

This is better than everything we're talking about here anyway:

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Glad you like it and glad to have a healthy argy bargy. It's good for the soul, don't you know.

 

[mjp]

I more than liked it, I'm indebted to you for turning me on to it. And yes, if we all agreed on everything, there would be no point to any of this.

 

[d gray]

I thought this was a fun thread about creativity and then, bassists and drummers. My hackles tell me I should go away. My frantic brain tells me otherwise.

there's nothing wrong with an intelligent argument. it was an interesting read.

reminded me of when i was a teenager a friend who was a crimson fan bought "exposure" thinking it would be
like crimson. didn't know wtf to make of it. we'd go around screeching the title track - "expoooooosurrrrre"

but i always remembered and still like this one.


i saw KC on the 3/perfect pair tour in 84 (i think) and it was amazing.

 

[esart]

A few things from me...

I still can't find the live Crimson vid that I like the most, but when I think about it, it may not had been live! It had their live type set up with projections and such, but it may have been done in a studio. And I can't remember the song either, dammit! But I did find a later clip that was at least entertaining, as 80s as it is. The band is so happy and are genuinely having a good time. You can see that. I used to love listening to this repetitive stuff as a young person, but then again, I also listened to the metronome for fun too.


I wanted to also point out the Fiona Apple song mjp posted and how it is Prince inspired whether she is aware of it or not. Whether anyone is aware of it or not. I mean, sure - he didn't invent putting a melody over a simple drum beat, but you have to admit, it's fucking genius. When Doves Cry wasn't the top-selling single of 1984 for no reason. This is something Prince does a lot in his writing, that works every time, I imagine because he is both a drummer and a melodic instrumentalist. I won't pick apart any more than that, but wanted to point out that he has influenced more musicians that have come since him than probably any other musician I can think of, just as Stevie Wonder and his influences made impact on him.

By the way, both of them are on my favorite drummer list. ;)

 

[mjp]

he didn't invent putting a melody over a simple drum beat, but you have to admit, it's fucking genius. When Doves Cry wasn't the top-selling single of 1984 for no reason.

It's difficult to hear that song as groundbreaking now since it's so ingrained in the pop music lexicon, but it was really a jarring experience to hear it for the first time. "When is the bass going to come in? Oh, I guess never." Someone at Warners said, "We can't put this out as a single, there's no bass guitar on it!" Prince just said, "It didn't need bass." Might seem trivial now, but it was unheard of at the time.

he has influenced more musicians that have come since him than probably any other musician I can think of...

Well that's the thing, isn't it? Popular music (at least "urban," a.k.a. funk/R&B/soul music) sounded one way, then Dirty Mind and Controversy came out, and practically overnight all of pop music sounded like a Prince record. That's not an exaggeration, and it's hard to fathom now so long after the fact. But I can tell you that when Thriller came out, we all listened to it and said, "Well, that's funny, Michael Jackson thinks he's Prince now." That's how pervasive the change and influence was.

Not to mention that Prince usually had half a dozen bands out in the world all playing music he wrote, produced or recorded himself. He was very prolific in the early days (still is to a lesser extent), and the amount of good music he made is mind-boggling. Of course being that prolific also means he made a lot of not-brilliant-but-only-okay music, but it all had his stamp.

 

[Short Bus]

I like crimson better with Belew and Levin. They brought fun into the music. I've seen Belew solo and with Crimson once and twice with the Bears. The only connection to this Crimson and the early Crimson is the name and Fripp of Course. I've seen The League of Crafty Guitars tour too. I also got shit faced with the bus driver of Porcuopine Tree in Quebec City. I'm a prog fan of because of Fripp.
That Said
When working in the record store I used to put the promo copy of Dirty Mind on every time a guitar player would walk into the store.
Eventually they would ask who is this and I would say Prince-some would say that fag? Others would say really and realize they had found there own black swan.

The reason I'm writing this and the reason I posted North Star (it's not over rated it's just under rated by you) is that I hated Darryl Hall until I heard that song. That song made me realize that theres more here to hear-this guy can sing!! and that me liking or disliking a song or genre before actually taking the time to listen is robbing me of a lot of fun and more importantly good music-that may make me a better musician.

PS You're a bass player so I'm surprised you dismiss Prince cause to me that means that Larry Graham George Porter and Bootsy on whom shoulders Prince sits are part of that dismissal. Cue up Sign O the Times and write back-it will be fun.

 

[mjp]

Larry Graham George Porter and Bootsy on whom shoulders Prince sits...

He has to sit on their shoulders in order to have a face to face conversation with anyone.

Rimshot!

Get it? Get it? Because he's really short...

Thank you, goodnight!

Not for nothin', but I saw Prince play bass for the Time one night, and it was slammin', yo. Another night he played drums behind the Time all night. And by all night, I mean all night. For almost three hours. Hard drummer, man. Hard.

There were some great shows at First Avenue back in ye olden days.