Dispelling Bukowski's myths

Erik said:
If you read just one book of poems the myth quickly crumbles.

Yeah. I began by reading Buk's poems and didn't actually read a single one of his novels until last year. I don't enjoy them as much as the poems because they aren't as... open? When I read his poetry it is like experiencing the real Buk, whereas reading his novels is like trying to see his face through a mask. I never believed in any myths about him, never idolized him - just enjoyed his words. I have one friend, a girl, who has refused for years to read Buk because of his harsh, beer-guzzling, womanizing image, and I keep telling her to read his poetry instead of the novels, but she won't. Oh well, her loss.
 

mjp

Founding member
Lindsay said:
I have one friend, a girl, who has refused for years to read Buk because of his harsh, beer-guzzling, womanizing image, and I keep telling her to read his poetry instead of the novels, but she won't.
Seems to be a common experience. There are always people who will refuse to try something based on what they've heard about it, as opposed to any personal experience.
 

mjp

Founding member
Ayn Rand? Now there's a writer with a rabid following, and as many detractors...
 

cirerita

Founding member
let's recap the myths here:

1) B was not a tough guy.
2) He was not completely on the bum during the 10 year drunk.
3) He did write a few poems and short-stories during the same 10 year drunk.
4) Bukowski didn't quit the PO bravely
5) Did he marry two or three times?
6) The 4-F episode. Was it real?
7) Bukowski downplayed his two years at Los Angeles City College, often saying he, "took a few classes." [mjp]
8) One myth, perhaps the greatest, is that of his drinking. It almost seemed impossible the amount he drank. [Charlie]
9) B revised more than he usually claimed.
10) B liked to play this image of the uncultured, unread man, oftenly misspelling and mispronouncing authors' name on purpose.

are we done??? or are you holding back some info? come on, you guys, open fire and let the cavalry destroy those myths once and for all!!!
 
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mjp

Founding member
Okay, the book Women - Bukowski said that it was a summary of a few years worth of women, but in reality, it may have been a summary of almost all of the women he was with. With the exception of Jane and Barbara (did he mention Barbara Frye in Women? I can't recall).

Though if our own mystery girl is any indication, there may have been many he didn't include, so maybe I'm disproving my own theory here. I should probably stop typing now. ;)
 

Johannes

Founding member
"At the age of 23, Bukowski finally lost his virginity to an overweight whore in Philadelphia ..."

--> we all know this one. I remember many poems/storys on the whore-theme and Weissners portrait of B. as "pimp" and "living with whores" goes in the same direction.

But my speculative guess is that it's exaggerated as the other parts of the Bukowski-myth. I tend to believe that he sure got in touch with prostitution in one form or another (and maybe never personally at all, who knows?), but not on this regular basis the IMAGE (by Mjp) gives you the feeling.

I think that he made the biggest part of that up out of female acquaintances (spelling correct?) like Jane ... etc.

Compare the first published interview on this site:

"Kaye: I would like to make reference to a particular poem in your most recent book, Run With the Hunted. Would you happen to have the name and present whereabouts of the girl you mentioned in 'A Minor Impulse to Complain'?

Bukowski: No. This is no particular girl; this is a composite girl, beautiful, nylon leg, not-quite-whore, creature of the half-drunken night. But she really exists, though not by single name."

Girls like that he knew plenty and for sure. But do you think he really got in touch with professional prostitutes on a regular basis, if only when he was younger?
 
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hank solo

Just practicin' steps and keepin' outta the fights
Moderator
Founding member
Red Strange

Brother Schenker said:
saw something on the internet about 8 years ago...someone claiming that Buk got some of his stories from some dude named "Red" who supposedly really did live the life of a railroad bum...

I remember reading that too. Can't find the original source anymore though.

You are referring to "Red Strange" or "Kid Red". Some people have speculated that many of Bukowski's wildest, supposedly autobiographical, tales were actually just retellings of stories that this guy Red told Bukowski.

Only reference to him I can immediately find online at present is here:
http://altreel.blogspot.com/2004/11/charles-bukowski-poet-laureate-of-skid.html

If you have a copy of The Charles Bukowski Tapes, you'll want to watch #38, "Red Strange", where Bukowski explains who Red was, and how he influenced Bukowski.

CB: He was as close as I could find to a guy like me... He'd get little jobs, in rooming houses... I got a lot of short stories out of him.​

Johannes said:
"At the age of 23, Bukowski finally lost his virginity to an overweight whore in Philadelphia ..."

I think you have to accept that during his twenties and early thirties, when he was mostly drinking and staying in flea pit rooming houses, Bukowski would frequent the filthiest dives and meet the filthiest people. This makes sense as he would always be in a very poor neighbourhood. And his famous teenage acne-vulgaris would certainly have impacted on his confidence and his success with women.

Bukowski recounts the anecdote about this woman, and how she was the first one to show him any kindness in the film Bukowski: Born Into This. Its a sad tale which ends up with Bukowski accusing her of stealing his wallet, calling her a whore and throwing her out. When he finds the wallet under his broken bed, he tries to find her to apologise, but is no longer welcome in the bar where they had met...

Even in later life, Bukowski has said/written how he was always attracted to or seemed to attract damaged women. And I've read comments that films like Factotum and Barfly fail to correctly depict the type of women he would go with - instead they use attractive actresses like Marisa Tomei and Faye Dunaway.
 
cirerita said:
I trying to find the similarities between Stanley Kubrick, Neil Young and Charles Bukowski. And, believe me, there are more similarities than you would think of.

This is such an interesting comment... I'm new here and you've probably discussed this before but I have to ask how you came to this "connection." I'm a huge Neil Young fan and have been for his entire career. Thanks....
 

hank solo

Just practicin' steps and keepin' outta the fights
Moderator
Founding member
Allen "Red" Strange
Brother Schenker said:
saw something on the internet about 8 years ago...someone claiming that Buk got some of his stories from some dude named "Red" who supposedly really did live the life of a railroad bum...

hank solo said:
You are referring to "Red Strange" or "Kid Red". . . If you have a copy of The Charles Bukowski Tapes, you'll want to watch #38, "Red Strange", where Bukowski explains who Red was, and how he influenced Bukowski.

CB: He was as close as I could find to a guy like me... He'd get little jobs, in rooming houses... I got a lot of short stories out of him.​

I just got hold of a copy of Fire Station - its dedicated to Allen "Red" Strange.
 

hank solo

Just practicin' steps and keepin' outta the fights
Moderator
Founding member
Well, its a Second Printing (1970), and in wraps not Hardback, but it was £35 from a book seller here in the UK. which is about $60 US or 51 Euros. Its in really excellent condition so I think it was a bargain.

And as it wasn't on ebay, no MF to worry about :D

BTW - i meant dedicated as in printed dedication, not signed or anything.
Guess you worked that out, at that price ;)
 
Dispelling the Dispelling of Myths

This is an old thread, but I was in the mood today to make a few personal observations of my own.

let's recap the myths here:

If a myth is defined only as an either/or proposition, it's a faulty premise to build a case on; there are shades of grey when talking about the totality of anyone's life.

1) B was not a tough guy.

Well, I'd say he was pretty tough. Is there any doubt that Bukowski decked his father after the father tried to rub Buk's nose in his own vomit?"”after enduring brutal beatings from his sadistic father for over ten years? (The Schroeder tapes.)

Any doubt the B had his share of bar fights over the years"”"was a pretty good duker""”and had the shit kicked out of him, but won of few of his own?

Any doubts that B sometimes carried a knife (his "steel") because he understood a thing or two about violence? (Hostage reading.)

Any doubts that he sometimes resorted to physical violence when he was frustrated or upset? (With Linda on the Schroader tapes.)

Does this mean that every scene of violence he describes in a story, or autobiographic novel, had to have occurred at all or be exactly true to literal reality? Of course not"”and I don't expect it to be. Does it mean that he didn't have a soft side as well? Of course not. Does the tough side of his nature have to be exclusive of his soft, sentimental side? Of course not. But some critics feel that both sides cannot be true within the same man"”and that's where they make their critical mistake; and I see the problem as not the man himself, but their perception of the man; both sides of the nature can be true with the same person. So again, one must be careful trying to dispel a "myth" based upon a faulty premise. And this is why a "diss" approach is of very little interest to me, and ends up trying to reduce a man of genius down to the ordinary mediocrity of most writers.

2) He was not completely on the bum during the 10 year drunk.

So, if he wrote and submitted a few pieces here and there"”that makes him a full-time committed writer within this 10 year period? Of course not. His main focus"”and I have no reason to doubt his own assessment"”was primarily on life experiences... So what was he supposed to say?"”"I was on the lamb for 10 years, but I sometimes took a short stab at it and submitted to 'this' specific publication, and 'that' specific publication, on such and such a date, and was rejected, discouraged, bored, hopeless, without having any confidence and still not feeling ready." If he saw this overall period as one of non-writing, I have no reason to doubt his overall assessment. He was hardly front page news with any kind of a major literary work or success, other than the two published works in Story and Portfolio. Whatever writings he submitted were on a very low-key and understated basis, and he was not trying to attract major attention to himself, at a time when he felt unprepared for wider attention. He said so himself, and why make a major myth or deal out of it? A complete non-issue for me.

3) He did write a few poems and short-stories during the same 10 year drunk.

Though he may have tested the literary market every now and then, probably out of curiosity, he did not view this as a significant writing period for himself OVERALL, for reasons he mentioned time and time again. This was hardly a major deception on his part. Another non-myth to dispel.

4) Bukowski didn't quit the PO bravely

His letter, asking that the PO reinstate him after his earlier resignation, showed a man in fear of poverty and one who was obviously genuflecting before people he probably despised but needed. He felt that they still held the financially power of life or death over his head, according to how he viewed his life at that time, especially because of his health challenges of the mid-50s and his probable need of medical insurance, and the need of some kind of economic security. (Haven't we all done this?"”I know I have.) So he played their game and kissed their asses. Nevertheless, this is no negation of the other facets of his character when he was living in his own element... Again, here's another situation when, according to conventional wisdom or literary criticism, opposite sides of his character have to be mutually exclusive of each other. Bad trip, man!

5) Did he marry two or three times?

If it felt like a marriage, what does the exact legal status matter?"”especially according to FBI, who wouldn't understand a man of Bukowski's unconventional temperament, even if they were paid to. So"”more deliberate deception by Bukowski? Of course not. He evaluated his relationships according to his own subjective standards.

6) The 4-F episode. Was it real?

He didn't keep the draft board aware of his current address and whereabouts, and then the FBI took notice of him, like they no doubt did with anyone else of draft age during WW2. So, deliberate draft-dogging? I don't think Bukowski was that stupid"”nor was he particularly balanced or sober or politically savvy during this rabid, patriotic, rah-rah period in US history. But deliberately running away from the draft board?"”No. He was just running away... from everything"”another non-issue for the critics to try to make something of. If one reads enough Bukowski, one can see that he would be easily capable of getting in trouble this way out of...indifference.

7) Bukowski downplayed his two years at Los Angeles City College, often saying he, "took a few classes." [mjp]

Does anyone really feel that this period had major impact on his life? It probably helped bring out his art ability more than his writing. But that these years contributed to his writing success? I doubt it, unless it was in teaching him about the conventions of academia to avoid (though academia is not all bad) and what not to do. So, another major myth to bust?"”a complete non-issue again. I feel it would be better not to write a diss at all then to include such weak, non-essential arguments and so-called myths. It's not that Bukowski didn't exaggerate for creative reasons; it's just that he looked like a man who simply a law unto himself.

8) One myth, perhaps the greatest, is that of his drinking. It almost seemed impossible the amount he drank. [Charlie]

Some people have an industrial-strength liver, and if they're in enough emotional or physical pain, they can consume ungodly amounts of alcohol and still refuse to die. I have no doubts in my mind that Bukowski could consume a bottle of hard liquor in two hours, like he said he could, and then follow it up with two six-packs. Did he do this every fucking day? Of course not. But here was a man with extraordinary creative sensitivity, in extraordinary emotional and sometimes physical pain. His father beat him, as the brutal sadistic jake of a father he was, between the time Bukowski was 6 and 16. I have no reason to doubt that, even at the age of 11, Bukowski could have easily been exposed to alcohol and taken to it as the soul savior it was. Why in God's name would he make this up just to make a good story, after he was already famous with his previous novels? So he could brag and boast that he started drinking at 11? Sorry, but I don't buy it.

If readers are so bloody worry about being fooled by this man"”or any other writer"”how can they possibly enjoy reading him? I find this quite a bit on this newsgroup: people so worried about being deceived, taken for ride, or fooled"”rather than just going along for one of the great literary rides in a lifetime. Sometimes these so-called myths are something we have so we can grow into them, and I don't go for their being "stripped" away without understanding their purpose first.

Along these same lines, I remember coming across a review of the music of Debussy, and the reviewer was crowing in praise because the pianist had "burned the mist" off Debussy"”yeah, the ethereal mist that Debussy had taken a life-time to learn and put there to begin with, and was part of its magic... I feel the same way about burning off the "myths" of Bukowski. If you focus on burning it off, rather than creating your own myth to live up to, you may have missed the point.

9) B revised more than he usually claimed.

Sure! But the point is, most of his works came out flowing like a Niagra, and in need of very few revisions. Whether he sometimes struggled with some of them greatly, as all great artists do, is again a non-issue. Struggling was not his predominate way of writing, and that's what counts"”not the scattering of exceptions to the rule when compared to his endless lava-like flow of consummate productivity.

10) B liked to play this image of the uncultured, unread man, oftenly misspelling and mispronouncing authors' name on purpose.

It should be evident from his own words (on the Poems & Insults CD) that he felt his audience expected this of him, or saw him mostly this way. But he also offered his serious poems to show that he wasn't just a "beer-drinking machine."

I would also say that, as a self-educated man, he would sometimes mispronounce words because he didn't know any better. Every noticed how be pronounced library as "liberry"? His errors seem mostly unconscious to me, rather than another Machiavellian deception to deliberately throw the academics into a tailspin and play down to his readers.

Perhaps I feel strongly about such efforts of academic "de-mythification" because my own years of academia left a lingering bad taste in my mouth: it was only after I dropped out out formal education that I discovered the joy of reading and learning, and began to live"”not that I would necessarily recommend this choice to others.

Best wishes to all.

Poptop
 
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cirerita

Founding member
poptop,

glad you're reviving old threads.

let me tell you that I don't agree with your views, though. and let me add that you begin by quoting a brief statement which had been previously explained at length and then proceed to say it's faulty!

If a myth is defined only as an either/or proposition, it's a faulty premise to build a case on; there are shades of grey when talking about the totality of anyone's life.

I don't feel like counter-quoting (is that a new word?) all your arguments because my thoughts are already somewhere in this long thread. No need to repeat them.
One thing I've learned over the years is that the more worship (or really admire) a person the easier it's to see realities as non-myths or irrelevant stuff, and the more you're detached from that person -but close in spirit- the harder it gets to see those realities as non-myths or irrelevant stuff. It doesn't matter whether you're an academic or a peasant. It's a question of time and becoming detached... but, I insist, that doesn't mean you're not close in spirit to that person. You can be close in spirit to B and be detached from him at the same time. The only difference is you no longer worship him.

What you consider non-myths or irrelevant stuff to me is clearly relevant stuff and definitely -dispelled- myths.

And it's a good thing we cannot edit our thoughts. First take, best take, remember?
 

mjp

Founding member
2) He was not completely on the bum during the 10 year drunk.
So, if he wrote and submitted a few pieces here and there"”that makes him a full-time committed writer within this 10 year period? Of course not. His main focus"”and I have no reason to doubt his own assessment"”was primarily on life experiences...
The point of that myth was not that he didn't write or submit, it's that he claimed to be out on the road - or at least out of Los Angeles - for ten years, and that just wasn't the case. 1942, 43 and 44 were the only years he didn't have a (known) Los Angeles address or Los Angeles job.

And apparently the year or so he was in Philadelphia, he held down a job at a car lot, so he could not have been in a bar from 6 a.m. to closing, as the mythology (and his own stories) would have you believe.

---

You know, I re-read what you've written here, and I can't just let some of it go without saying something.

You call these "weak, non-essential arguments," but all you've done is type your impressions and opinions, you haven't argued for anything other than the shining glory that is poptop. While, for the most part, the things in this thread that run contrary to myth have been established by a lot of people who have done a lot of research. A lot of people you don't know anything about, by the way, but for some reason feel free to stereotype, insult and demean.

The myths may be "non-issues" to you, but they are part of the Bukowski persona, so they are fair game to analyze and ultimately dispute, when the facts tend to dispute the stories. What do you expect to read in a forum like this anyway? How many times do you want to read someone saying they love Genius of the crowd or Bluebird? What comes after that?

There are people here who have been reading Bukowski for decades, or studying his life and his work, so for you to saunter in with your angry screed on how everyone should experience Bukowski is just weird.

Your opinions and impressions - and even strong disagreements - are welcome. Your condescension is not. Try to separate the two.
 
Biography as I like it, sincerely Poptop

From Confessions by Frank Harris (excerpts; author of My Life and Loves)

THE ART OF BIOGRAPHY

Biography, properly considered, is the topmost peak of art. For the painter, the body is the chief thing and by means of it he can give glimpses of the soul, but to the biographer the body is only valuable as it has influenced the spirit; it is the spirit he must portray. And he can do what no other art can even attempt: he can depict the growth and the formative influences and the effect poverty or riches, health or sickness, even accidents may have upon the soul. The true biographer can make you know a man or woman, body, heart, and spirit, and its multiform development from the cradle to the grave. And if he has taken a great soul to depict, the vicissitudes are apt to be extraordinary and the crises heartrending. The great man must be considered fortunate if his Gethsemane and Calvary come at the end and not midway in his life. The story of the growth of a true soul is the essence of Natural Religion; for great men are the Jacob's ladder which leads to heaven. The biographer will have to trace how faults in such a one dwindle, not by pruning, but by loving, by affectionate understanding of others, and the shortcomings that persist will hardly be serious, much less maiming. Then there is the way I think the best: to paint the man as he appeared, his loves and hatreds, fears and hopes and deeds, with admiring affection and perfect sympathy till he lives for you, but above all to trace his growth, and show how and why he came to his achievement. Later it may be worth while to show him as others saw him, friends and foes alike, so that he is the focus, so to speak, of a dozen different lights; but all the while the love and admiration of the writer must keep the reader's interest by interpreting the very soul of his subject. One very memorable, yet minor, fact you will find in this biography-writing if you seek to make your subject live: his virtues and powers must be balanced or offset, so to speak, by faults and whimsies. You can make a man live by blocking in his faults and vices but not by praising his virtues and qualities; you can mark outlines better by black shadows than by high lights. And so the biographer is compelled to recall his hero's short-comings, his faults, his vices, his superstitions and humors with particularity, but never with contempt or dislike, or, so to speak, from above. But such little shortcomings are nothing in comparison with the fact that none of the famous biographers have attempted to paint the youth and spiritual growth of their hero, though the formative period of life is by far the most important. Here is the final judgment. If you have been able to tell his vilest faults as a mother would, with love and pity, your portrait will live; for love is the key that opens all hearts and there is no other.
 
OK so i was reading this.....and I just thought of something for discussion, and maybe have seen it posted here before....
But did Buk really have sex with one man or many men? Or any man at all?
 
Wasn't too sure...
ok in screams from a balcony- Letter to William Wantling he writes....
I was never good with women, never really tried to be, couldn't get my back up to go through the prelims, the fake talk. it cost me too much. then, too , a kind of withered pride. they all looked kind of pukey to me, ,even those boys called "fine." too much battle.
And to Douglas Blazek Dec. 11, 66
I screwed every woman in that hotel including the scrubwoman who was nearly 60. even screwed a guy in the ass by mistake on night. it ought to be a laugher.
 
I thought I had seen it somewhere else....but when i searched i couldn't find it.
Also who is the unknown letter to Ralph regarding his radio/music writing?
 
Ok after reading the last discussion of this we'll just leave it alone.....
In Screams From A Balcony
Buk writes a letter saying his dad stole two of his books claiming to be Charles Bukowski. What ever happened with this and did the books get reclaimed? I believe he said the year was 1944.
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
Penelope,
Buk's father reportedly brought a copy of Portfolio III to work and bragged that it was by him, which would have enraged Buk, of course.

Bill
 

the only good poet

One retreat after another without peace.
The mistaken anal sex episode was written about before.

Anyone else remember this?
i recall he wrote about it in Notes...don't think elsewhere in his fiction.

i think it was apparently "whitey" who was the unfortunate receptacle for the purple onion...could be wrong...:D lol
 
Sorry if everyone is tired of this old thing. I hope nobody get's pissed off about what I say or where, but I just had say something about this:

4) Bukowski didn't quit the PO bravely -as stated elsewhere. They were about to fire him for absenteeism and he did have some savings; see Sounes, pp. 101-102.

Most people would say B was very brave to quit the P.O. and start a full-time writing career with the monthly $100 check from Martin. But it seems that B had considerable savings in the bank and he was about to be fired anyway, so Sounes concludes it wasn't a brave move after all.

He was 50 years old. He had a daughter who wasn't even 10. He was quiting something that was after all a "real" job. He wasn't a young man anymore. He didn't know if he could make it as a writer. He had been working for 12 years - having a steady income. Now only 100$ a month? Not all that much even then.

And even if they would be about to fire him, he didn't go to them begging for them not to fire him, like many others would in a similar situation. He didn't go to them saying: "I'll change my ways, I'm sorry, I'll do better if you give me just one more chance..." or something.

How much money did he have? How long would the money have lasted if he wouldn't have made any money writing?

So all I'm saying is this: It took some guts to quit his job like that. But he planed it (he had been talking about wanting to quit in his letters since the early '60's) and he didn't do it without any fear at all, but he did it. It's easy to quit a job when you are 20, or even 30, but when you are 50...

So what is brave, what isn't?
 
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