dogdice on the fallacy of inspiration
- Thread starter dogdice
- Start date
Father Luke
Founding member
I know that you aren't writing that Black Swan's painting is crap, but rather
inspired imitators. Like, oh, say this example:
Late Night Music Club with Nine Inch Nails and...
However, there is also this:
There is imitation, then there is inspired.
inspired imitators. Like, oh, say this example:
Late Night Music Club with Nine Inch Nails and...
However, there is also this:
There is imitation, then there is inspired.
Black Swan
Abord the Yorikke!
I have to disagree with that,
I believe that it raises the bar.
Inspiration is recognition
in itself of higher levels of perception.
It's stimulating . . .
I have revised my estimate up from 99% to 99.99%
I have also advised somebody else on the forum (a marcos I think) to disregard everything I say & in fact do the exact opposite of what I suggest.
but I do maintain that this talk of "inspiration" is sheer & utter bollocks.
Oh, and I never meant to say anything bad about Black Swan's painting. I haven't even seen it and for all I know it's a masterpiece.
I have also advised somebody else on the forum (a marcos I think) to disregard everything I say & in fact do the exact opposite of what I suggest.
but I do maintain that this talk of "inspiration" is sheer & utter bollocks.
Oh, and I never meant to say anything bad about Black Swan's painting. I haven't even seen it and for all I know it's a masterpiece.
ROC
It is what it is
I'll be disregarding your comments too. I know you will not mind.
Every great artist is inspired by those that have gone before them.
Every single one.
Anyone who thinks they are creating art in a total vacuum is reinventing the wheel, a total wanker, or both.
Father Luke
Founding member
No mention of Opera?
No. If I understand you correctly, you had the right intention.
There are those who imitate. Like, oh, say these wonderful kids:
Late Night Music Club with Nine Inch Nails and...
Then, there is also this inspired work:
There is imitation, then there is inspired. I believe you meant to say
imitation. And if you did, then fully 99.999999% of that would be crap and I'll
stand in the trenches fighting with you til they drag us both to the grave.
- -
Okay,
Father Luke
No. If I understand you correctly, you had the right intention.
There are those who imitate. Like, oh, say these wonderful kids:
Late Night Music Club with Nine Inch Nails and...
Then, there is also this inspired work:
There is imitation, then there is inspired. I believe you meant to say
imitation. And if you did, then fully 99.999999% of that would be crap and I'll
stand in the trenches fighting with you til they drag us both to the grave.
- -
Okay,
Father Luke
mjp
Founding member
Inspiration is subjective, influence isn't. It exists and affects you whether you want it to or not (see: every parent in human history). That deaf dumb and blind kid sure played a mean pinball, but he never wrote a poem.
Huh (that seemed really clever in my brain, not so much when it was typed out)?
Anyway, the idea that one creative work can't be inspired by another is sheer & utter bollocks, as the kids say.
Huh (that seemed really clever in my brain, not so much when it was typed out)?
Anyway, the idea that one creative work can't be inspired by another is sheer & utter bollocks, as the kids say.
"No matter how radical an artist may seem he is never born of a vacuum; there is always a dialogue between his present and the past, his search for new forms and already existing traditions." -B.H. Friedman, Jackson Pollock : Energy Made Visible
it's all in the realms of semantics isn't it. I just don't like the words "inspiration" or "admiration," but I can easily make room for "influence."
as in, I was writing under the influence...
also the only writing I do is to politicians, newspapers, magazines and tv stations, so perhaps I am "inspired" by such things as the Iraq war, banking crises, pensions, housing problems and so on. I just never thought of it like that.
and I've read enough wannabe-Bukowski writing in my time (and wannabe-HST for that matter) to never want to hear the words "inspired by" and "Bukowski" uttered in the same sentence ever again.
as in, I was writing under the influence...
also the only writing I do is to politicians, newspapers, magazines and tv stations, so perhaps I am "inspired" by such things as the Iraq war, banking crises, pensions, housing problems and so on. I just never thought of it like that.
and I've read enough wannabe-Bukowski writing in my time (and wannabe-HST for that matter) to never want to hear the words "inspired by" and "Bukowski" uttered in the same sentence ever again.
mjp
Founding member
Not really.
Inspiration and influence have very different and specific meanings. I think what you meant is that you don't care or understand what the difference is, so you're going to blow off the idea as trivial.
ROC
It is what it is
Precisely
Usually when people fall back on the "It's semantics" defence it's because they could not be bothered considering the point at hand in any great depth.
To be inspired by something does not necessarily mean you then poorly mimic that thing. Although that seems to be the inference you have drawn.
Read the auto/biography of any great person and you will see what their influences were and who their inspirations were.
Usually when people fall back on the "It's semantics" defence it's because they could not be bothered considering the point at hand in any great depth.
To be inspired by something does not necessarily mean you then poorly mimic that thing. Although that seems to be the inference you have drawn.
Read the auto/biography of any great person and you will see what their influences were and who their inspirations were.
Father Luke
Founding member
World of difference between mimicry and inspiration and influence.
I'm not a big thinker, but I can even see that.
Me thinks I smell a devil's advocate trolling the forum.
But that's a dicey thing to say...
- -
Okay,
Father Luke
I'm not a big thinker, but I can even see that.
Me thinks I smell a devil's advocate trolling the forum.
But that's a dicey thing to say...
- -
Okay,
Father Luke
ROC
It is what it is
Yeah, that's what I was thinking... the trolling bit, not the dicey bit.
In Granta's current list of Best Young American Novelists, the vast majority of the 20 had emerged from university "writing programs." Two thirds of them were educated at virtually identical liberal-arts colleges.
You can call me a "weak troll" and say that all my posts are negative, and even claim that only a thoughtless buffoon falls back on semantics to shore up his argument, and I would probably agree with you. But that still leaves the above statement intact doesn't it ? Perhaps you think it's a positive thing that the "best" young American writers are mainly being influenced or inspired by their college professors.
No doubt this constitutes more "trolling." I had to ask a computer person what it meant. When I told him that there were people who, instead of ignoring posts they didn't agree with, either made personal attacks or just removed them altogether he said that there was a word for them too. He called them "stalkers."
You can call me a "weak troll" and say that all my posts are negative, and even claim that only a thoughtless buffoon falls back on semantics to shore up his argument, and I would probably agree with you. But that still leaves the above statement intact doesn't it ? Perhaps you think it's a positive thing that the "best" young American writers are mainly being influenced or inspired by their college professors.
No doubt this constitutes more "trolling." I had to ask a computer person what it meant. When I told him that there were people who, instead of ignoring posts they didn't agree with, either made personal attacks or just removed them altogether he said that there was a word for them too. He called them "stalkers."
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bospress.net
www.bospress.net
MJP,
Is there such a term? Are people that edit posts on ther forums actually called "Stalkers"? If so, then this is a serious misuse of the word. Clearly a stalker would to follow someone and "stalk" them. Sitting in your own house when someone comes over and starts a fight with you (as a troll would) would not make you a stalker for asking that person to control themselves or leave.
I'm not convinced that this person is a troll, but I have been wrong before. I'm just curious about the term "Stalker".
Best,
Bill
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ROC
It is what it is
Oh no.... don't leave dogdice!
I was so enjoying your ill-informed, sweeping generalizations.
Adolescent declarations which you would quickly recind at the slightest opposition.
I know why you think poetry is worthless.
Because you don't take your own words seriously.
Why then would you treat others with more respect?
I was so enjoying your ill-informed, sweeping generalizations.
Adolescent declarations which you would quickly recind at the slightest opposition.
I know why you think poetry is worthless.
Because you don't take your own words seriously.
Why then would you treat others with more respect?
cirerita
Founding member
uh-uh, what he said!
mjp
Founding member
No, it's an imaginary term, but since the "friend" he spoke to was also probably imaginary, it's fitting.
I don't ever edit posts, by the way. I merge, move and yes - shudder! - sometimes remove posts or threads from publicly viewable forums in order to keep the threads readable. Recently I removed a post by dogdice where he listed Nazi Albert Speer as one of his "five favorite authors."
Censorship! Censorship!
I'm not keen on it either, which is why you're on your way out. You can remove yourself by not coming here anymore. Or do you need to be banned to prove your point? Either method works for me.
that's the problem, you haven't had a point since you got here. or if you have had one, you changed it or retracted it or danced away from it, cloaking it in all sorts of fuckery.
That's a beautiful line...
to clarify a few things before mjp gives me the red card.
The "5 favourite authors" post he pulled & then referred to rather snottily:
Well, the last book I read was "The Human Factor" by Graham Greene & the one I'm currently reading is "Inside the Third Reich" by Albert Speer. So I just put those two names down. That was apparently out of order. But saying something like,
"Well everyone knows the Australians were Nazi sympathizers... " - mjp
is perfectly acceptable. Strange.
On the same thread somebody wanted the relevant chapter from Ham on Rye so I took the trouble to find it and type out a fair bit of it too. In fact I've done that sort of thing more than once during my time as a "troll." Even stranger.
And if nobody thinks my point on this thread about Granta's list of Best Young American writers is of any interest, well that's up to you I suppose. But you can't say I didn't try.
As for "paying to be a troll," it cost the same as a pack of cigarettes and it was worth it just to find out that the forum resembles nothing so much as a knitting circle full of vindictive old ladies bragging about who has the most expensive type of wool.
But if mjp feels bad about taking my ten dollars he can feel free to donate it to the charity of his choice when he implements his ban.
The "5 favourite authors" post he pulled & then referred to rather snottily:
Well, the last book I read was "The Human Factor" by Graham Greene & the one I'm currently reading is "Inside the Third Reich" by Albert Speer. So I just put those two names down. That was apparently out of order. But saying something like,
"Well everyone knows the Australians were Nazi sympathizers... " - mjp
is perfectly acceptable. Strange.
On the same thread somebody wanted the relevant chapter from Ham on Rye so I took the trouble to find it and type out a fair bit of it too. In fact I've done that sort of thing more than once during my time as a "troll." Even stranger.
And if nobody thinks my point on this thread about Granta's list of Best Young American writers is of any interest, well that's up to you I suppose. But you can't say I didn't try.
As for "paying to be a troll," it cost the same as a pack of cigarettes and it was worth it just to find out that the forum resembles nothing so much as a knitting circle full of vindictive old ladies bragging about who has the most expensive type of wool.
But if mjp feels bad about taking my ten dollars he can feel free to donate it to the charity of his choice when he implements his ban.
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ROC
It is what it is
Hi dogdice
I don't know if this helps at all...
I didn't mind that you included Albert Speer in your top 5.
I thought it was very helpful for you to type out the relevant section from Ham on Rye.
I tend to agree with your assessment vis-Ã -vis the sorry state of contemporary American literature. (North American, anyway).
I've come to the conclusion that you are not a troll.
But I do hope you get canned... for being a dick head.
You provide ample evidence with one or two of your other posts where you pretend to be clever and/or controversial, but actually say nothing.
Pure dick-headery.
Oh, and I may not have the most expensive type of wool... but I do have the biggest needles.
I don't know if this helps at all...
I didn't mind that you included Albert Speer in your top 5.
I thought it was very helpful for you to type out the relevant section from Ham on Rye.
I tend to agree with your assessment vis-Ã -vis the sorry state of contemporary American literature. (North American, anyway).
I've come to the conclusion that you are not a troll.
But I do hope you get canned... for being a dick head.
You provide ample evidence with one or two of your other posts where you pretend to be clever and/or controversial, but actually say nothing.
Pure dick-headery.
Oh, and I may not have the most expensive type of wool... but I do have the biggest needles.
ROC
It is what it is
No.
Or to simply mirror your meaningless reply...
it was a completely ridiculous thing to say wasn't it ? I have no idea what came over me...
:eek:
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ROC,
That has completely confused me. When I say that it would be hypocritical to ban me for being a "dick-head" I mean that if that was the only criteria then there would be bans dished out almost daily. Was that not clear ?
Isn't it Friday night in Melbourne now or something. Surely you have better things to do than this.
That has completely confused me. When I say that it would be hypocritical to ban me for being a "dick-head" I mean that if that was the only criteria then there would be bans dished out almost daily. Was that not clear ?
Isn't it Friday night in Melbourne now or something. Surely you have better things to do than this.
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