Next to the definition of demagogue it will now just read: Donald Trump.
In other news, you can get odds of 66-1 on Trump turning the White House gold.
In other news, you can get odds of 66-1 on Trump turning the White House gold.
Don't forget to vote!
- Thread starter mjp
- Start date
But don't those arrows run contrary to that notion? Young people got more conservative and the elderly got more liberal since 2012.
Take a screenshot of this post in 2020. I predict that the 18-29 crowd will be even more conservative in 2020. This new crop of kids is more conservative, I'm telling you lot.
mjp
Founding member
Historically, they don't appear to be. Yes, the youngest voters went for Clinton and Obama, but before that they voted for Reagan and Bush (and in 2000 they split evenly between Gore and Bush). If you're only comparing today to 2012, then yes, more went Republican in this election. But if you go back further, clearly it swings in both directions, and I think you're just seeing the latest in those swings.
Then again, looking at historical numbers is misleading too, since the Democratic party has become more conservative (i.e., more pro-business and anti-people) while the Republican party has put a huge effort into appearing more concerned with social issues (which is also misleading, since their core goals have always remained pro-business and anti-people, but they now wrap that in what are meant to look like more "social" issues: specifically the "culture war" around guns, Christianity and unborn fetuses).
These being statistics, you can make of them what you will, of course. But I'll just say that the first time I voted - in 1980 - I was dumbfounded that friends of mine actually voted for Reagan. It seemed inconceivable to me. Just like I imagine a lot of 20 year olds couldn't understand why some of their peers voted for Trump. So I guess I'm just not seeing where things have really changed that much.
These numbers come from Roper:
1976 (18-21 year olds)
Carter 49%
Ford 51%
1980 (18-21 year olds)
Carter 45%
Reagan 44%
Anderson 11%
1984 (18-24 year olds)
Mondale 39%
Reagan 61%
1988 (18-29 year olds)
Dukakis 47%
Bush 53%
1992 (18-24 year olds)
Clinton 46%
Bush 33%
Perot 21%
1996 (18-24 year olds)
Clinton 55%
Dole 35%
Perot 11%
2000 (18-24 year olds)
Gore 47%
Bush 47%
Nader 5%
2004 (18-24 year olds)
Kerry 56%
Bush 43%
Other 1%
2008 (18-29 year olds)
Obama 66%
McCain 32%
2012 (18-29 year olds)
Obama 60%
Romney 37%
I never realized how divided young voters were in past generations! We really are the wildest-eyed liberals yet. Perhaps I am just getting older and so are my peers... after all, I'll nearly be middle-aged by the next election.
Nonetheless, the rise of the so-called alt-right on my old internet stomping grounds is troubling.
Nonetheless, the rise of the so-called alt-right on my old internet stomping grounds is troubling.
I don't need to understand why it happened because knowing the answer is of no use to me. Talking about it accomplishes nothing and I have other things I need to get done. And yet, I'm talking about it, so there's that.
As for the last statement, it was late is all I've got on that one. I think most of you know what I meant.
and renaming it 'Trump-House'.
Pogue Mahone
Officials say drugs may have played a part
Like our new First Lady, this book was never meant to be opened all the way. We must build a wall. She alone cannot protect herself from all those Mexican rapists.
I'm surprised by your statement, but you can have your feelings of course. I do not agree that not finding the answer to the reasons or talking about why the election went the way it did accomplishes nothing. I think what doesn't really matter is whomever is in office. What matters is how it affects the people. People are at odds and vehemently divided. Some are polarized, anxious, depressed and even suicidal because they don't take any action or talk about it. The conservative side also feels misunderstood. Many people that voted for Trump are not "bad" people, but they are seen by progressives as racist, xenophobic, homophobic, etc. Half the country are not clones of Donald Trump. They can't be! I'd like to have some hope that 47.2% of the people that voted for him do not agree with all that shit he said. Candidates resonate with certain people for different reasons and they only have a choice of two. The supporters that make it onto television are partially (mostly?) the fanatics, so the media does not help with that, but the media is also not a "leftist conspiracy" either. My guess is also that many working-class whites are far more racist than white liberals thought (black people - and other people discriminated against - already knew this), and they resent being shamed for it. Or perhaps they are not all racists and resent being shamed in general by intellectuals. There is probably not ONE reason, but how can we build a bridge if we don't talk about it? These are just a few thoughts.
Another thing I'd like to add. Sorry to make this even longer, but, if the left doesn't start to reach out and try to talk to the Trump supporters that looked the other way at some of his horrendous statements against women, Muslims, disabled people, Mexicans, and others, we can have something DANGEROUS on our hands, and I really believe that. Look back in history to see how Adolf Hitler rose to power. Seriously. The people put him in power and most of those people were not "bad." They just looked the other way while he kept appointing more and more scary people in his axis. I don't believe most of his early supporters would have elected him if they knew what he was really capable of. So it's important to talk to people before it's really too late and the divide gets even bigger over the next four years.
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Well, the collusion of the DNC and the anointing of HRC, turned off many people (including me).
There was a hubris in the way she ran her campaign that left a large hole where the post-industrial working class lives and she had no connection to them. She waffled on the $15 minimum wage, she absolutely supported TPP and seemed less focused on "right to work states" and more on international issues.
As much as I hate a Trump administration ( I voted for HRC), he was the last lunatic standing.
the republicans trotted out what, 15 or 16 "viable" choices? We were left with one. That Bernie was so marginalized and fucked-over has come back to bite Dems on the ass.
As much as I wish the results were different, much of this abomination can be laid directly at the feet of the DNC.
I think after all the initial smoke clears, the republicans will self-destruct in a variety of interesting ways that will be really entertaining. Unless we're all dead from a nuclear war, of course.
There was a hubris in the way she ran her campaign that left a large hole where the post-industrial working class lives and she had no connection to them. She waffled on the $15 minimum wage, she absolutely supported TPP and seemed less focused on "right to work states" and more on international issues.
As much as I hate a Trump administration ( I voted for HRC), he was the last lunatic standing.
the republicans trotted out what, 15 or 16 "viable" choices? We were left with one. That Bernie was so marginalized and fucked-over has come back to bite Dems on the ass.
As much as I wish the results were different, much of this abomination can be laid directly at the feet of the DNC.
I think after all the initial smoke clears, the republicans will self-destruct in a variety of interesting ways that will be really entertaining. Unless we're all dead from a nuclear war, of course.
We could argue this point.
Hitler wrote Mein Kampf in 1924 and it became a bestseller before he got into power in 1933. I've never read that book, but from all I know Hitler clearly outlined his political ideology, gave a lecture on "the Jewish peril" and openly stated the future German expansion in the East. So I think people knew quite well what he stood for.
Skygazer
And in the end...
Clinton wasn't right for this election. Sanders would have been a better fit or should have been, but would it have changed the outcome? I'm not sure.
Trump's simplistic messages tapped into the fears of white middle and working class whites. The two major concerns of Europeans and Americans; the economic slump and the refugee/immigration "crisis" has loomed large. Making America Great Again - Trump's fight against globalisation worked because - the winners aren't going to be us, the 21st century will be Asia's. Globalisation has leveled the playing field on the wealth disparity for the new emerging economies and the One percenters in the west.
For middle and working class white Trump voters in the manufacturing and energy producing states it wasn't a vote against their best interests, when they fear their society is on the brink of collapse or threatened by outsiders (even when it's not), if it's constantly referred to in the right wing media and feverish talk shows, they don't vote for the party that will introduce a better minimum wage,healthcare system and touchy feely social issues. They vote for nutcases evidently... and historically.
Trump's simplistic messages tapped into the fears of white middle and working class whites. The two major concerns of Europeans and Americans; the economic slump and the refugee/immigration "crisis" has loomed large. Making America Great Again - Trump's fight against globalisation worked because - the winners aren't going to be us, the 21st century will be Asia's. Globalisation has leveled the playing field on the wealth disparity for the new emerging economies and the One percenters in the west.
For middle and working class white Trump voters in the manufacturing and energy producing states it wasn't a vote against their best interests, when they fear their society is on the brink of collapse or threatened by outsiders (even when it's not), if it's constantly referred to in the right wing media and feverish talk shows, they don't vote for the party that will introduce a better minimum wage,healthcare system and touchy feely social issues. They vote for nutcases evidently... and historically.
Pogue Mahone
Officials say drugs may have played a part
There is no doubt in my mind that after having to deal with a black president for 8 years, that many Trump voters could not simply handle a woman being president. If you look at American History, wowen are always the last to get their rights, so maybe this isn't a surprise -- but it was certainly disappointing. Just the way people talked about her -- it was like the Salem witch trials. But the fact is, 100 Million Americans didn't vote. And many women turned on Hilary for their own personal reasons. So that's what we got.
In defense to Mr. Stickpin --FUCKING VOTE NEXT TIME. DON'T ACT LIKE A STUPID EUTOPIAN ASS WIPE THAT SAYS THERE WASN'T A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO. THERE WAS A HUGE DIFFERENCE AND MANY PEOPLE MAY PAY FOR YOUR SPOILED FUCKING VIEWS -- INCLUDING YOU.
And while I could have empathized with Colin Kaepernick before, the fact that he didn't vote makes me feel like he is a self absorbed subnormal piece of shit who should become a politician.
In defense to Mr. Stickpin --FUCKING VOTE NEXT TIME. DON'T ACT LIKE A STUPID EUTOPIAN ASS WIPE THAT SAYS THERE WASN'T A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO. THERE WAS A HUGE DIFFERENCE AND MANY PEOPLE MAY PAY FOR YOUR SPOILED FUCKING VIEWS -- INCLUDING YOU.
And while I could have empathized with Colin Kaepernick before, the fact that he didn't vote makes me feel like he is a self absorbed subnormal piece of shit who should become a politician.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
Manufacturing jobs are not coming back. Trump may want to bring them back, but if he does, they will be in "Right-to-work" states with NO unions. I, for one, would not want a factory job at $7.50 an hour with NO benefits, but that is what it will be. We are a global economy and there is no way to reverse that. Import taxes will not help. It will only raise what we pay for stuff. No sane car manufacturer would pay $30 an hour (plus benefits) in the US for what they can pay $2 an hour (with no benefits, and no environmental or safety regulations) for in India. We don't need to make our poorest citizens even poorer by making them work for peanuts*.
United states manufacturing is dead. You would have just as much luck opening a typewriter manufacturing company or a Blockbuster video. Technology has changed.
If we had smart leadership (we now will have a government that believes that climate change is a hoax because it still snows sometimes), we would be investing in renewables. AMAZING for our economy AND environment. Instead we will let the Chinese make all the money from this while we wait for jobs that will never come back. I saw recently the hexagonal tiles that are solar panels. Every road int he country could be outfitted with them and we would have enough energy to power the earth many times over. We should start with I95 as there are MILLIONS of people that drive that every day (especially politicians.) An added bonus is that road repairs are easy. No tar, but pop out the panel and install a new one. As long as we have a government that caters to people that only want the quick buck (like from fracking and coal mining), people that think that it is all a hoax, people wanting a catastrophe so that their jesus can come back, this will never happen.
</rant>
* if we were smart and had any kind of morals, we would demand that all items imported into this country be made by people being paid a certain minimum wage and with certain safeguards. This would stop the slave labor/child labor... Imagine if our government passed a law imposing a 100% tarriff on anything imported into this country unless the manufacturer could prove that he was paying his people a fair wage with benefits. It would be tough at first, but I think that if others followed suit, it would force the issue. Raising pay in China would make it more profitable to make the cars where you are selling them
United states manufacturing is dead. You would have just as much luck opening a typewriter manufacturing company or a Blockbuster video. Technology has changed.
If we had smart leadership (we now will have a government that believes that climate change is a hoax because it still snows sometimes), we would be investing in renewables. AMAZING for our economy AND environment. Instead we will let the Chinese make all the money from this while we wait for jobs that will never come back. I saw recently the hexagonal tiles that are solar panels. Every road int he country could be outfitted with them and we would have enough energy to power the earth many times over. We should start with I95 as there are MILLIONS of people that drive that every day (especially politicians.) An added bonus is that road repairs are easy. No tar, but pop out the panel and install a new one. As long as we have a government that caters to people that only want the quick buck (like from fracking and coal mining), people that think that it is all a hoax, people wanting a catastrophe so that their jesus can come back, this will never happen.
</rant>
* if we were smart and had any kind of morals, we would demand that all items imported into this country be made by people being paid a certain minimum wage and with certain safeguards. This would stop the slave labor/child labor... Imagine if our government passed a law imposing a 100% tarriff on anything imported into this country unless the manufacturer could prove that he was paying his people a fair wage with benefits. It would be tough at first, but I think that if others followed suit, it would force the issue. Raising pay in China would make it more profitable to make the cars where you are selling them
I love that euphemistic language.
"Right to work=right to be fired."
"Right to work=right to be fired."
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
"Right to work" = right to work for less.
That being said, the south and Midwest vote for anti-union leaders today will keep them poor.
This is the future or our country. A race to the bottom.
mjp
Founding member
In all fairness, we really had to start preparing for the death of manufacturing jobs about 30 years ago if we wanted to be in a good position today, and obviously we didn't do that (and still haven't done it). The rise of the small computer should have been a sign to really smart people that everything was about to change.
I know we didn't see it coming in the printing industry (the small press/small shop industry, I should say, which used to be a large industry and now doesn't exist), and it's only by dumb luck that I avoided being so tremendously screwed that I would have voted for Trump last week.
That doesn't explain people cutting their own throats now of course, that's a different issue. But as a country, we never prepared for this, but other countries did. So our current state shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
I know we didn't see it coming in the printing industry (the small press/small shop industry, I should say, which used to be a large industry and now doesn't exist), and it's only by dumb luck that I avoided being so tremendously screwed that I would have voted for Trump last week.
That doesn't explain people cutting their own throats now of course, that's a different issue. But as a country, we never prepared for this, but other countries did. So our current state shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
You are right, MJP, we are behind the ball on this one, but the sad thing is that so many still REFUSE to see it. BEcause they still DENY reality, they are not willing to consider changing. These Drumpf voters think that he will snap his tiny fingers and factory jobs at amazing wages will flock here. The only reason that any manufacturing jobs will come back is if they can get the labor at slave levels. I see a time in the near future where we have a LOT more people working at MUCH lower wages. We'll bring back what my family (and MANY others) did in the Bronx in the early 1900s; a family of 14 in a 2 bedroom apartment. This included grown children and their spouses.We are on a downward spiral and the driving factor is the inability (or willful ignorance) to see it. The emperor had no clothes and we are the emperor.
The printing industry analogy is a great one. Sadly, there are still people trying to make it as TV & VCR repairmen. These are people that have failed to understand that they are in a DEAD, not dying, industry.
The printing industry analogy is a great one. Sadly, there are still people trying to make it as TV & VCR repairmen. These are people that have failed to understand that they are in a DEAD, not dying, industry.
I did vote; thanks for asking.
PhillyDave
“The essential doesn't change.” Beckett
The book came out in 1925. Hitler lost the 1932 presidential election but was appointed chancellor in 1933.
*This info was already posted. I've been posting too quickly. sorry about that.
Even before 1923, Hitler was releasing excerpts of what would become Mein Kampf in leaflets and such. My paternal grandfather's family caught wind of it and left Hungary as soon as they read one. NONE of our extended family would believe what they were telling them even when it was there in black and white. They were not unlike most Jews, or even white Germans. No one believed it was possible. And we all know what happened to the rest of Hungary for those that didn't listen. That still didn't make them naive. It was inconceivable. And not everyone was able to leave even when they tried.
Skygazer
And in the end...
How to reconcile those two things is the problem, protectionism and trade emabargos hurt the same people you try to safeguard. Globalisation has dragged hundreds of millions of people out of poverty across the world and given them a step on the ladder, achieved of course on the backs of their exploitation and labour, as it was with ours 200 years ago, workers benefits and rights trail behind wealth creation in a capitalist world. It shouldn't be a free for all and ethical companies need more support and investment. But where globalisation has lagged, often due to unstable pollitical regimes, the poverty levels remain the worst. We need to accept a smaller piece of the pie in exchange for wealth creation elsewhere.
I don't think the West is about to implode on itself despite Trump's win. Wall St backed Clinton because she wasn't Trump, or his protectionism, which will ultimately hurt American workers too. What a weird election. It's been a really sad week watching Obama's farewell tour of Europe as President. In October he wrote a piece for The Economist (and I'll choose to believe it wasn't scripted) agreed with most of it and the things he didn't get to do.
http://www.economist.com/news/brief...ur-crucial-areas-unfinished-business-economic
I don't generally follow politics closely, but from what I've seen over the years this had to be the dirtiest election I can remember, shit being flung from left, right and centre. Talking of shit, a choice between Clinton and Trump was like someone holding out their hands and asking you to pick between a cat turd and a dog turd, I think people chose the turd they thought might stink less. Shitty leaders for shitty times.
If you really think the "dog turd-cat turd" analogy is an accurate reflection of the election players or results, you're probably stupid enough to be an American.
But like you said, you don't follow politics too closely.
But like you said, you don't follow politics too closely.
Pogue Mahone
Officials say drugs may have played a part
I usually respect master Skiroom ways of responding, but he let you off too easy.
You should make it a point in the next year to lick Kanye West's ass before he wipes. Because stupid fucks like you and Kanye can't tell the difference between a pinky up your ass or a fist.
I made a similar analogy not too long ago and I'd note that I did not get a similar response. Either I deserve it as well or you're looking for easy prey. Your choice to you both.
You're right. I felt the same about your opinion.