F.A. Nettelbeck?

[CuriousReader]

Hello -
this is my first time posting. i mostly read this site to find writers that I otherwise, likely, wouldn't have stumbled across.
I found Nettelbeck mentioned with some contentious feelings and opinions.
I read the long posting from a few months ago, with all sorts of tangents and fiercely inappropriate name calling - by all parties involved - and couldn't understand what was going on.
I value some things about this site and dislike some others, but would sincerely like some opinions about nettelbeck.
I've read him - he is a good writer. Is he Bukowski? Burroughs? no. clearly. A descent poet in a world with a lot of really really shitty poetry? possibly.
I think it's a Bukowski poem, or quote, but (paraphrased) the world has a lot of poets, but very little poetry . . .
Please fire away, any opinions on Nettelbeck are appreciated . . .

 

[hoochmonkey9]

his family seems nice.

 

[Dennis Loves The Beer]

nettelbeck, you do know that the powers that be can trace your ip address, right?

 

[CuriousReader]

I can only promise, or swear, or affirm, that I am not Nettelbeck.
I just wanted some sincere criticism or critique of his work; hoping to avoid a repeat of that last time he was discussed (and participated).
Any opinions? anyone. . .

 

[Bukfan]

You can probably find a website where they critique various poets works, including Nettlebeck.

 

[CuriousReader]

I've found a few reviews online, but I prefer a organic opinion. I figured i would try here. If folks are reluctant, I don't mind. I'll move along and look elsewhere, but, in part, I value what is written here.

 

[james]

have you read this thread?

https://bukowskiforum.com/showthread.php?t=6224

merely read a minute and see how, in post 10, he declares "trouble is really coming, motherfucker", for no good reason at all...then read post 12....what more do you need to know?

 

[mjp]

...I'll move along...

You do that.

I'm sure there are dozens and dozens of lively discussions about Nettelbeck percolating all over the place. He's such a legendary and influential literary figure after all.

 

[d gray]

i find it hard to believe there's not an F.A.Nettelbeck forum out there already...

 

[CuriousReader]

I didn't expect to get met with such animous. I was, sincerely, just looking for opinions. There are some talented people that post on here and I anticipated better. For instance, Father Luke is a literary force and I'd be willing to say 'a voice', Bottle of Smoke Press is outstanding and I value the hell out of what it is attempting to do, Dennis Dubay has an outstanding website of some very well written work - much of which is in progress, needs some polishing, which I am sure he knows, but good writing. It is hard to find good writing and I give credit to the above.
I apologize for not brining a better subject for discussion, but I was really asking.

 

[nervas]

I just wanted some sincere criticism or critique of his work; hoping to avoid a repeat of that last time he was discussed (and participated).
Any opinions? anyone. . .

But as you said, it was already discussed, why not just read that? Having admitted that you read that, it seems you're just trying to stir up some, ah, drama.

 

[CuriousReader]

I don't think what was written, on the thread in which Nettelbeck graciously contributed (this is an obvious pun), was a substantive attack on his writing. I am looking for literary criticism, not a bunch of guys arguing about nonsense - although I adored that thread for all sorts of reasons. I was more looking for a criticism of what he's written, not drunken responses to anonoymous postings.
Is he a good writer?
If not, why?
if yes, why?
I've read that 6 page exchange, but want to talk more.

I do not want to stir up drama, I want to avoid that and have a discussion about the merits. If there are any.

 

[mjp]

Why?

 

[jordan]

maybe it's worth spinning this off into a side discussion about whether or not there's value in literary criticism of writers like nettlebeck. bukowski spawned a whole school of people who write self-explanatory, narrative poetry - some are good, and thousands are horrendous - but is it worth critiquing these poets? take a book like russel harrison's essays on bukowski - while a nice effort to bring bukowski into the fold of writers who are "worthy" of extended critical tracts, the book smacks of trying to fit a square peg of an author into a round hole of conventional literary criticism (feminism, marxism, etc).

is nettlebeck a good writer? yes, if his poetry speaks to you and moves you, inspires an emotional response, makes you think, or tells you a good story. no if the converse is true. in other words, what in nettlebeck's writing gives *you* the desire to seek other people's opinions? that may be a better starting point anyway.

 

[CuriousReader]

That's a good question, MJP, I appreciate it - i probably should have written my reason for writing first.
I think, whenever something is read, it is worth discussing. From complete shit to good writing. A lot of the meaning and literary value of Bukowski, Kerouac, SaFranko, Fante(s), is self evident. However, I am trying to figure out about Nettelbeck. I want to learn more. Folks don't read this stuff in casual conversation. However, this forum's value comes largely from the fact that you guys know these names and more . . . you know the characters, the actors, the writers, and the readers. I value your opinions, in varying degrees of course, and want to start a diaglogue about the merits, or lack-thereof- of Nettelbeck - for now. I think he's contributed something valuable to the literary scene. i want my point argued and counterpointed, affirmed, denied, and discussed. it's like good barroom banter. . . but with people that have read a similar set of anthologies.
I also would discuss Father Luke's contribution, which I think is substantive, however, for now, my OCD has me focused on Nettelbeck.
I know he has pissed off a lot of people, but . . . but . . . but. . .
does that answer?

Jordan,
Good response.
Must writing be personal? or is there a value that surpasses that? Is there 'good' writing and 'bad' writing'? If Nettelbeck had cowtoed to this forum would he be beloved as a relic of the old school - the Bukowski school? or is he objectively a drunkard that can barely write? this is the conversation I was hoping to have.
The last thread was filled with angry, personal - rightly so - attacks, by a lot of interested parties. Nettelbeck insulted a lot of people and if I met someone that did to me what he did on this forum, I'd be pissed and dislike anything the man said or wrote - but, cleaning away that nonsense - can we have a discussion about the literary value, or lack-there-of, of F.A. Nettelbeck?

A few weeks ago there was some discussion on this forum about Dan Fante. Some people said he was a bad writer, others said they enjoyed his work. The opinions were well reasoned by people that had read his work, understood his style, had read his contemporaries, and were commenting, with some knowledge of this bizzare gengre.
I really took to heart what was said about Fante.
I enjoy Fante, read him, will continue to read him, but enjoyed the banter about his writing, as it informed my own reading.
There's some value in that, right?

 

[nervas]

If Nettelbeck had cowtoed to this forum would he be beloved as a relic of the old school - the Bukowski school

Yes, and I would have purchased anything he ever released. Now I'm on my way to a Denver Bronco website, for my first post, to ask what everyone thinks of the Oakland Raiders...And God forbid anyone say anything against the Broncos, cause I'm just going to discuss their ability and merit.

 

[bospress.net]

What I have seen of Nettlebeck's work, it is not for me. I just don;t get it. I have heard good things about Bug Death, but am not willing to spend $75 to find out. Also, there is a theory around these parts that he was the promoter of his work. in other words, he was the one who called his work important. It was obvious on the wikipedia page that him or someone in his family created it and it was found to be self-promoting and changed.

Add to that him being the way that he is and I don't have much desire to dig further.

I tried to read SaFranko, but hit a wall. Maybe I need to try again. I know that Dan Fante loves his writing and I love Dan Fante's writing.

Bill

 

[CuriousReader]

Bill - thanks for the response. I appreciate a 'it's not for me' type reply. I've ran into a lot of walls with writers being not for me. It makes sense and I have heard the criticism that Nettelbeck promoted himself too hard.
Nervas - I catch your acerbic response to my very general inquiry. I was hoping for replies like Bill's, but realize I must accept replies like yours. I didn't anticipate such harsh treatment toward a general inquiry.

 

[nervas]

Oh, Oh, sorry, yeah nettlebeck is not for me..there is that better? K, thank you. Now I can sleep.

 

[CuriousReader]

Nervas - i wasn't trying to be smart or anything, just really asking an opinion. Some people don't like to give opinions and I figure that included you. no disrespect intended, just narrating, i guess.
i hope you have a goodnight, man, seriously.

 

[number6horse]

OK, CuriousReader: Despite the influx of trolls we've suffered here lately, I will give you the benefit of the doubt....

My take on Nettlebeck is that he is a self-promoting hustler who climbs onto his self-constructed crucifix for the purpose of looking down on his fellow poets. Several of his poems will lead you to believe that he is a Vietnam veteran (though he doesn't overtly make the claim), but he is not. This is a fraud that I cannot personally forgive. I have known several 'Nam vets, befriended a couple, and lost one of them to suicide.

Nettlebeck can string together words in interesting ways, but for what ? He is a poser and who wants to analyze a fraud - besides a psychiatrist ?

While I'm at it, Billy Joel can go fuck himself for that "Goodnight Saigon" bullshit he pulled back in the 80's.

 

[mjp]

I didn't anticipate such harsh treatment toward a general inquiry.

Then you're a little bit of an idiot, aren't you? Considering you claim to have read the other thread. You're either stupid or you have an agenda. You would like us to think you're harmless and stupid. Maybe you are.

But to me, it's bullshit, everything you're saying. It's disingenuous and dishonest. (And I had to read it, so it's worth discussing, right?) To come in here out of the blue and want to discuss Nettelbeck, of all people, just doesn't ring true.

So I will offer up my opinion that you are full of shit. That's my role here. The big-mouthed stooge. The lighting rod for you to fling your monkey feces at. Everyone else can take you seriously if they'd like, but I can't. I don't buy it. It's too - improbable. That someone would A) give a shit about Nettelbeck at this point in the history of the world, and B) come here - where he's already exposed himself as a lunatic prick - to discuss him, is just too convenient.

So fuck you.

---

And here's my review of F.A. Nettelbeck's masterwork BUG DEATH:

He cut up other books and magazines and pasted them together. So it is, by definition, not a literary work, but a collection of excerpts from other books and magazines. By literary standards, it is what the Greeks called "shit." A con. A ruse.

End of review.

I should tell you that I have not read, nor would I ever read, BUG DEATH. Nor do I have to read it to review it, considering that it was never written, per se.

Freaky, ain't it? Like a Möbius strip or a 1967 Beatles record.

 

[CuriousReader]

# - great analogy to the 'goodnight saigon' bullshit - billy joel was more full of shit than just about anyone writing a song attempting to strike a cord - I appreciate the insights. I know a few vietnam era writers that would cringe at the thought of someone posing and I can see that, perhaps more clearly.
MJP - the second half of your reply, the critical one, not the one that said 'fuck you' to a stranger - me - I agree with what you've said. I appreciate the insights and value your perspective.
I would ask that you not make such personal attacks against someone you do not know - i am not an idiot and I doubt you would ever say 'fuck you' to me in person - I came with a set of questions and wanting only a literary discussion, attacking me as a person is a bit uncalled for, right?
This -

He cut up other books and magazines and pasted them together. So it is, by definition, not a literary work, but a collection of excerpts from other books and magazines. By literary standards, it is what the Greeks called "shit." A con. A ruse.

End of review.

I should tell you that I have not read, nor would I ever read, BUG DEATH. Nor do I have to read it to review it, considering that it was never written, per se.

is a keen liteary insight - it is a shame that you had to ridicule me - someone you have never met - to reach that.
I appreciate what you've said though, and all is forgive . . .

 

[mjp]

I would ask that you not make such personal attacks against someone you do not know...

Sorry. I forgot that you were making the rules now.

 

[CuriousReader]

MJP - i am not making the rules, obviously. I'd just ask that you not attack me - me as a person - attack my question and substance, but not me, man that has to be out of line? i came only asking for an opinion, open to anything, but attacking me, come on?

 

[nervas]

- i am not an idiot and I doubt you would ever say 'fuck you' to me in person -

Well after watching Ed Woods Glen or Glenda, I just could not sleep, so I came back, and wow, is this the second challenge we have seen this year? In 3 days, already? Ok, ok, I am not going to bed, but rather to watch the Laker game on the tele, and they're already winning by 22, so there's that.

 

[Dennis Loves The Beer]

MJP - i am not making the rules, obviously. I'd just ask that you not attack me - me as a person - attack my question and substance, but not me, man that has to be out of line? i came only asking for an opinion, open to anything, but attacking me, come on?

You claimed you've read this message board before.
By that admission, you'd know then that MJP does that. You should not be surprised by this. It was posted next to the sign that read "Enter At Your Own Risk" ... and you did.

I think by now you get the idea of opinion of Nettelbeck now. Maybe time to move on .. be it participation in a different thread of a different topic. Or just moving on in general.

 

[jordan]

be less sensitive. seriously - you came here to ask about a person who personally insulted and made threats to everyone on this forum that he interacted with. that's not going to go down smoothly. plus, the forum just dealt with a troll (not saying that you're a troll, but this guy was) who acted like a hurt little flower every time anyone said anything that wasn't very nice. i don't want to be a jerk, but this is the only thread you've posted in so far, and if you indeed wanted to make it about nettlebeck, then keep it on topic. please *don't* turn it into a thread about what is polite or impolite on a public forum, since we've been awash in those lately. if you have a problem with any poster, that's what private messages are for, or you can send a PM to a moderator asking them to contact another member about personal attacks that are unjust.

see the thing is that it's a CLASSIC troll tactic to start a thread that you KNOW is going to veer into a controversial subject and then act *gasp* just so hurt at the inevitable personal attacks that arise, and within a weekend, you've got 100 responses all about you and your thread and you take that attention that you gathered and you mold into into a trophy and put it on your troll shelf and you go on to another forum. and that hasn't happened yet, but man we're close, the way things have been going.

 

[CuriousReader]

Alright, I guess this is done. I am not hurt, nor offended, and still like you guys. I am done asking about Nettelbeck. This is my last reply to this thread, unless directly asked or prompted. I will still post, but my objective was, in part, met with this. I guess.
I am not a troll and don't really understand what a troll is on this forum.
Do people actually troll this site for nonsense? don't answer. i guess people troll all over for nonsense.
thanks for the slight replies to my inquiry.
I am pretty well read and look forward and all.

Also, I am hardly sensitive. But, where I come from, if you say 'fuck you' to someone you'd better be prepared to back it up. I guess I got a little too vernacular on tha t . . . I've said 'fuck you' to about 3 people in my life and don't take it too lightly. A lot of people are from suburbs and rural settings and don't know anyone that's been shot over such. Anyway, it's over.

I am not a troll - I thank Jordan for bringing to my attention the practices of a troll and I realize why it may seem that way. For real, thanks man.

 

[nervas]

where I come from, if you say 'fuck you' to someone you'd better be prepared to back it up. A lot of people are from suburbs and rural settings and don't know anyone that's been shot over such.

hahhah, why? Are you Snoop Dogg? You from Inglewood Homie? Or maybe the LBC? I'm sooooooo sorry, I tried to stop responding here, but the Laker game is a blowout, and I'm bored. Dammit, I'm laughing so hard it's hard to type, so at least thecurioustragedy made me laugh for the night.

aw shucks.