Love as a Theme in Bukowski's Poetry
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bospress.net
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Hi,
There is a photo of her in the Uncle Howard book. She also has posted here and reads the posts here from time to time...
Bill
There is a photo of her in the Uncle Howard book. She also has posted here and reads the posts here from time to time...
Bill
Here you go;)
http://books.google.nl/books?id=T-O...&hl=nl&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result
(Naughty google!)
http://books.google.nl/books?id=T-O...&hl=nl&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result
(Naughty google!)
sifting through the madness for
maybe with bukowski it wasnt really about themes talking about the theme of love in those poems ahh whatever the arguments might be
maybe it wasnt really about "writing what one knows" either
if i go through life knee deep in shit thats more about being in shit than knowing it even it i dont REALLY seem to be in it anymore
and another thing that ruffled my dirty feathers somebody said something about 'technical' to refer to bukowski baaa! bukowski was in there enough to be in there and just out of there enough to write about it
james joyce did that in the dubliners the kinks did it on Arthur
most people, don't do it
dammit talking about bukowski in terms of knowledge, technique, themes fuck and shit
and choice? choosing dames? does anyone think that bukowski had criteria?
maybe with bukowski it wasnt really about themes talking about the theme of love in those poems ahh whatever the arguments might be
maybe it wasnt really about "writing what one knows" either
if i go through life knee deep in shit thats more about being in shit than knowing it even it i dont REALLY seem to be in it anymore
and another thing that ruffled my dirty feathers somebody said something about 'technical' to refer to bukowski baaa! bukowski was in there enough to be in there and just out of there enough to write about it
james joyce did that in the dubliners the kinks did it on Arthur
most people, don't do it
dammit talking about bukowski in terms of knowledge, technique, themes fuck and shit
and choice? choosing dames? does anyone think that bukowski had criteria?
Oh my......
What a fantastic and entertaining thread.....
I really don't believe I'm qualified to comment that much..such is the standard of debate...
Other than:
I agree with the view that Buk was starved of love, in childhood and youth.
The first love is the strongest and he felt this with Jane.
I believe a lot of the academics focus their venom on his 'misogny' as an easy target.
They simply ignore the quality of his many love poems.
I think Buk chose his women for their qualities as he saw them.... all of them so different.... but I think he loved them all..... His later relationship, I feel HE had more control over.
And I love Anne Sexton and I WOULD have slept with her.... and Plath and Buk...
(lol)
What a fantastic and entertaining thread.....
I really don't believe I'm qualified to comment that much..such is the standard of debate...
Other than:
I agree with the view that Buk was starved of love, in childhood and youth.
The first love is the strongest and he felt this with Jane.
I believe a lot of the academics focus their venom on his 'misogny' as an easy target.
They simply ignore the quality of his many love poems.
I think Buk chose his women for their qualities as he saw them.... all of them so different.... but I think he loved them all..... His later relationship, I feel HE had more control over.
And I love Anne Sexton and I WOULD have slept with her.... and Plath and Buk...
(lol)
People don't need love...
Good thread this is. Cudos to all contributing. But be warned! I feel like taking a ramble on the subject...
A theme running thru the movie Factotum seems to be a focus on Bukowski's own personal philosophy. I'm thinking about the lines in the breakup-scene with Jan that go something like this: "People don't need love, what they need is success in one form or another. It can be love, but it doesn't have to be."
What's that!? People don't need love?
Buk also says something similar in one of the conversations on "The Bukowski Tapes" (can't remember which one just now). The movie Factotum made me notice the importance of these lines, and no doubt they also made an impression on the director. That's why the humor is toned down in the movie, I think. I like these lines because they show Bukowski trying to understand mankind instead of just despairing over and disparaging them. He's good at that too, and it somehow appealed more to me when I was younger, but in time you grow weary of pointing out faults. OK, mankind has faults, now let's get on with it for Christ's sake!
The lines from Factotum show Bukowski at his best, trying to understand mankind, perhaps personified by his own brutal parents. It's just a survival reflex I guess.
Lately I've found this philosophy can deepen my appreciation of many of Bukowski's best pomes & ideas. Examples:
-The "Don't try" credo: being good at something without effort - like love.
-Small children as geniuses: when you're little you're good at everything! You learn things on the fly without any effort. Everyone's a winner! That is, if you're father doesn't beat you to a pulp...
-The Genius of the Crowd: the one thing we all can do well without trying - hatred
-Buk's scatology: "hot, glorious and stinking!". Admit it! Sometimes you feel proud of your effortless accomplishments in the crapper! (Just like small children in potty-training.)
-Art: good artists and writers are simply doing something they enjoy and are good at. There's no magic involved. It may be hard work, but in the end they're just enjoying a hot glorious beer-shit!
-Alcohol: you forget your inhibitions. You're good at everything again, just like when you were little.
-Others?
Now on the love-subject: Love is just an expression of our need to be good at something, says Chinaski. Falling in love with someone doesn't take any effort, it just happens, like dumb luck. This feeling of intense accomplishment, which seems to come effortlessly, is what Buk means when he writes: "People want to be good at something. It can be love, but it doesn't have to be." It's the feeling of accomplishment that's important.
What's important is finding some talent or ability in yourself which you can base your self respect on. It can be writing, plumbing, farting, horse racing, crossword puzzling, love or whatever. This can carry you thru rough times. And then you work on improving that talent - going all the way - to the best of your ability. It's fun! The "Don't try" credo focuses on the starting point: the ability or talent you have without trying. You just can't fake that. But once you find it, you have to work on it, cling to it, make room for it, go all the way, like Chinaski says at the end of the movie.
So love, in itself, isn't important. Rather, it's a bit over-rated because ppl tend to mistake it for the ultimate miracle wonder drug answer which can solve all problems - hey presto!
Nope! That's not it. So says Bukowski.
There's one BIG problem though: what if you can't seem to find your own personal ability or talent? Then mankind falls back to basics - hatred, envy, violence, negativity, projecting low self esteem aggressively outwards towards others. That's the lowest common denominator when all else fails. We've all done it. It's the genius of the crowd.
Oh well. Maybe we should stick to "love the wonder drug" after all.......
All in all, you can find plenty of lines in Bukowski's writing that seem deceptively obvious and simple, but which are actually amazingly acute observations of human insight.
That one simple line from Factotum: "People don't need love" is pretty acute, if you ask me.
Pretty acute indeed.
Good thread this is. Cudos to all contributing. But be warned! I feel like taking a ramble on the subject...
A theme running thru the movie Factotum seems to be a focus on Bukowski's own personal philosophy. I'm thinking about the lines in the breakup-scene with Jan that go something like this: "People don't need love, what they need is success in one form or another. It can be love, but it doesn't have to be."
What's that!? People don't need love?
Buk also says something similar in one of the conversations on "The Bukowski Tapes" (can't remember which one just now). The movie Factotum made me notice the importance of these lines, and no doubt they also made an impression on the director. That's why the humor is toned down in the movie, I think. I like these lines because they show Bukowski trying to understand mankind instead of just despairing over and disparaging them. He's good at that too, and it somehow appealed more to me when I was younger, but in time you grow weary of pointing out faults. OK, mankind has faults, now let's get on with it for Christ's sake!
The lines from Factotum show Bukowski at his best, trying to understand mankind, perhaps personified by his own brutal parents. It's just a survival reflex I guess.
Lately I've found this philosophy can deepen my appreciation of many of Bukowski's best pomes & ideas. Examples:
-The "Don't try" credo: being good at something without effort - like love.
-Small children as geniuses: when you're little you're good at everything! You learn things on the fly without any effort. Everyone's a winner! That is, if you're father doesn't beat you to a pulp...
-The Genius of the Crowd: the one thing we all can do well without trying - hatred
-Buk's scatology: "hot, glorious and stinking!". Admit it! Sometimes you feel proud of your effortless accomplishments in the crapper! (Just like small children in potty-training.)
-Art: good artists and writers are simply doing something they enjoy and are good at. There's no magic involved. It may be hard work, but in the end they're just enjoying a hot glorious beer-shit!
-Alcohol: you forget your inhibitions. You're good at everything again, just like when you were little.
-Others?
Now on the love-subject: Love is just an expression of our need to be good at something, says Chinaski. Falling in love with someone doesn't take any effort, it just happens, like dumb luck. This feeling of intense accomplishment, which seems to come effortlessly, is what Buk means when he writes: "People want to be good at something. It can be love, but it doesn't have to be." It's the feeling of accomplishment that's important.
What's important is finding some talent or ability in yourself which you can base your self respect on. It can be writing, plumbing, farting, horse racing, crossword puzzling, love or whatever. This can carry you thru rough times. And then you work on improving that talent - going all the way - to the best of your ability. It's fun! The "Don't try" credo focuses on the starting point: the ability or talent you have without trying. You just can't fake that. But once you find it, you have to work on it, cling to it, make room for it, go all the way, like Chinaski says at the end of the movie.
So love, in itself, isn't important. Rather, it's a bit over-rated because ppl tend to mistake it for the ultimate miracle wonder drug answer which can solve all problems - hey presto!
Nope! That's not it. So says Bukowski.
There's one BIG problem though: what if you can't seem to find your own personal ability or talent? Then mankind falls back to basics - hatred, envy, violence, negativity, projecting low self esteem aggressively outwards towards others. That's the lowest common denominator when all else fails. We've all done it. It's the genius of the crowd.
Oh well. Maybe we should stick to "love the wonder drug" after all.......
All in all, you can find plenty of lines in Bukowski's writing that seem deceptively obvious and simple, but which are actually amazingly acute observations of human insight.
That one simple line from Factotum: "People don't need love" is pretty acute, if you ask me.
Pretty acute indeed.
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Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
A+ for Erik. My apologies too. I didn't focus on that the other day. You are the above average student, indeed.:)
vodka
Miss Take
Erik, I think if that's what he truly believed he wouldn't have been such an obvious romantic. He had success, sure. He had something he was very, very good at which was writing, but never did he abandon his quest for love. And all of his loves seemed to involve some sort of struggle, and often times he appeared to be trying very hard in spite of himself, such as in this poem:
https://bukowskiforum.com/showthread.php?p=57075#post57075
Admittedly, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that Bukowski was saying it's more important to have something you're good at, regardless of what it is? Are you saying that he was more interested in trying to understand mankind than writing about love? I'm not sure what you are saying exactly about love as a theme in Bukowski's work. That it is not necessarily a theme?
Pardon me if I'm being a dolt, but I'm just not quite following.
https://bukowskiforum.com/showthread.php?p=57075#post57075
Admittedly, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that Bukowski was saying it's more important to have something you're good at, regardless of what it is? Are you saying that he was more interested in trying to understand mankind than writing about love? I'm not sure what you are saying exactly about love as a theme in Bukowski's work. That it is not necessarily a theme?
Pardon me if I'm being a dolt, but I'm just not quite following.
vodka: No, you're not being a dolt, especially not for starting this thread! You are right in pointing out that love, as a theme, gets less attention than Bukowski's other, more "macho", subjects. No argument there. Good point.
I may have jumped the gun a bit because lately the word "love" has been bugging me. I've started to notice, more and more, that it gets used just about everywhere, by just about anyone, in a vague, careless sort of way, with absolutely no strings attached. But nobody ever seems to explain what they really mean by the word. And nobody ever says anything against it. This is similar to the use of the word "democracy" in politics. Democracy is a universal good, basta. Love gets the same treatment.
You wrote: "[...] while reading Bukowski I have fallen in love with him several times over."
What do you mean by the phrase "fallen in love"? You fell in love with some words on paper? Language is a funny thing.
You don't have to answer, I know what you mean, sort of. But my point is that romantic love is not the major theme in Buk's poetry. Buk knew the true value of romantic love from a very early age. What brought him thru his horrific childhood was definitely not love. Love had nothing to do with it, except by being in the background as something he lacked, perhaps. But he did come thru his childhood, more or less, and he did it, more or less, without love. (One of the few early instances of love I can recall off the cuff from Ham on Rye is the concern from a nurse drilling his boils... Now that's an example of (unromantic) love I can appreciate! Concern for an ugly, sullen, pus-dripping teenager. Gotta "love" those nurses! )
So how did Buk manage to get thru his childhood? I have no doubt that he was a very sensitive child, and later a very sensitive man, but it was not his sensitivity that brought him thru, it was his cool, unflinching intellect. That's what saved him. His ability to stay cool and analyze every situation. Quite unromantic. And his intellect was only matched by his sensitivity. And boy could he analyze love. Two titles come to mind: "Love is a dog from hell." and "Women". Also chapter 52 from Factotum, where Jan says: "So now you're a little crazy. No love. Everybody needs love. It's warped you." (Great concise lines!)
So I'll agree with you half way: he was concerned about love, but about love in a much wider sense, love in a more existential manner. Love understood as "What makes us happy?", "What makes life worth living?", "Why/how should/can we go on?". Romantic love is part of the equation, but only a part of it.
Ah well. I ramble.
But be sure of one thing vodka: my rambling is also an acknowledgement of you hitting an important nerve concerning the writings of Bukowski.
And finally I'll mention the poem "let it enfold you" from Betting on the Muse (378).
Do you agree that whole poem is about love - in a wider sense? :)
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vodka
Miss Take
Erik, i wouldn't say that romantic love is the main theme in Bukowski's work either. merely that it is an often overlooked theme. Bukowski, since he writes simply, tends to be taken at face value. in my opinion it's always good to pull back the layers a little.
corndog, you don't know the half of it. ;)
corndog, you don't know the half of it. ;)
