Oh, thy starry night! ... Bukowski in the Sky with Diamonds
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Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
Ah yes, the Cal Schenkel drawing from the cover of "One Size Fits All" album. I love the drawings he did for some of Zappa's albums...:D
I thought about buying it for a born-again fundamentalist Christian I know, but I'm afraid he would take it the wrong way - which of course would be the right way to take it...:)
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don't waste it on This kinda people!
There's no future in them.
Buy it for meee!
Now, THAT won't be wasted:
I'd go to church with this action-figure of buddy Jesus and will see what happens to those breads and fish.
And dammit, they didn't include some water! May be this would turn into wine! Lots of wine!
Look again roni, at the large flasks/urns/vases with the blue or red 'contents' depending on which way up Jesus likes them :)
I just noticed the glow in the dark hands. Nice, no miraculous touch :rolleyes:
Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
LOL - Good point, Roni! If I buy one, I'll put you in my will so you can inherit it. In the meantime I'll share all the wine with you I can squeeze out of the figure, but don't get your hopes up, those ridiculous..er..religious figure heads are some tough motherfuckers to deal with...
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Hey; you know I'm all about science. But even good old Albert Einstein accepted the possibility of a higher power (and that leaves the door open of all sorts of crap). Maybe he was wrong; that I'll certainly accept that too. I take nothing as "gospel," as it were.
But I do accept the notion that there just might be something other than natural order; a higher power, as it were. Maybe natural order is that higher power, and we just haven't correctly defined or interpreted it.
Sorry to sound so hippy-dippy bullshit, because I don't mean it to be so. I'm very much a realist, but I also accept the possibility that there's something out there that we can't define. And that is the very nature of a true scientist. Believe what you observe, but always question your findings and the basis for them.
Yes, but a good scientist always comes back to this. Both of these, in fact. I try to undertake all of my work we these two general tenets in mind.
I know I can give my client an answer, but I cannot always be sure it's the correct answer (they often hate this, but I need to convince them that it's not always possible). Sometimes I can, depending on the nature of the question. I also give everything I do the "straight-face" test.
Here's where astrology generally fails. But can I really be sure?
I know I can give my client an answer, but I cannot always be sure it's the correct answer (they often hate this, but I need to convince them that it's not always possible). Sometimes I can, depending on the nature of the question. I also give everything I do the "straight-face" test.
Here's where astrology generally fails. But can I really be sure?
Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
To answer if astrology holds water you'll have to examine their methods, I think. Personally, I have a problem when they claim that the planets and star constellations stands for different things. F.ex. that the various signs are ruled by the various planets, and that the planets represents different drives or psychological tendencies. Of course, I can't disprove it but it sounds like nonsens to me. I wonder if any astronomers believe in astrologi ;)
Whenever there's something that cannot be known for sure, it opens up for all sorts of theories and belief systems, and I think believing in any belief system limits our outlook.
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Well, that's certainly fair, bukfan. Don't get me wrong; my general position is that I think astrology is bunk. But I'm also, by definition, a fallible human. Maybe there's something...?
Here's some science for ya.. and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
That might be, and that question is up to each one of us to answer for ourselves. In case there is something, call it "God", a "supreme being", a "force" or whatever one could call it, it won't/can't be confined/limited to one specific belief system, I think. This "something" will probably transcend organized religion, if it exists. Maybe the beauty of a spiritual quest is that nobody can tell you the answer although all the belief systems claim they have them.
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Have you ever read anything by Jiddu Krishnamurti? You might like him Bukfan.
YouTube: Living Without Conflict
YouTube: Living Without Conflict
Is that what you believe?
I must say, I have to agree with Bukfan here, and go I step further. I do believe that there is "something" out there. I call it God. It does transcend organized religion. The beuaty of the spiritual quest is that only the spirit can tell you the answer.
p.s. never discuss religion on the interwebz. It goes nowhere.
Here's another curiosity from the horoscope of Charles Bukowski, text from Heaven Knows What by Grant Lewi (originally published in 1935):
213 VENUS SQUARE [OPPOSITE] URANUS
This like Venus conjunction Uranus (Venus in the same space with Uranus) in the quality of the emotional life. Read that paragraph. In addition to the characteristics given there, this will bring an additional somberness and sobriety to your outlook on human relations and will cause you at some time some considerable disappointment through misplaced or frustrated affections. You tend strongly to the unconventional in love matters, making a fetish of independence in your love-life. A certain austerity attaches to you, and you can be unyielding when it does not suit your purpose to yield, at which time your detachment and objectivity can amount to cruelty. But at other times look out for impulse and temperament, for this is an erratic and unreliable position and makes you liable to periodic destructive impulses.
203 VENUS CONJUNCTION URANUS
This gives an emotional nature alternately repressed and explosive, apparently somewhat conventional and cold but actually very independent and erratic in the love-life. A highly nervous quality accompanies all of your emotional dealings. You are an idealist in the realms of love, full of theories about sex and human relations in general, which complicate relationships that to other people are much more simple. You think much on emotional matters and are capable of hasty and jumpy action with respect to them; the motivating force behind your impulses is rational rather than physical"”you can be swept off your feet by an idea, an ideal, a theory, more quickly than by the physical beauty of an individual. This ideology of yours is likely to take quite unusual forms, and to lead to strange relationships among strange and out-of-the-way people, because of whom you gain the reputation for being an eccentric. With Venus conjunction Saturn [mentioned in a previous post] much trouble through emotional matters, and some isolation from ordinary social contacts in search of the sensational and bizarre. An idealistic, generalized, and humanistic quality colors all your emotions, and elevates them from the purely personal plane to a kind of abstracted passion.
"”-
Grant Lewi was born June 8, 1902 in Albany, New York. He was educated at Hamilton College and Columbia University. After graduating from Columbia, Lewi taught English at Dartmouth, at the University of North Dakota, and at the University of Delaware.
"”-
Another curiosity, psychologist Carl Jung:
While studying astrology I have applied it to concrete cases many times. ... The experiment is most suggestive to a versatile mind, unreliable in the hands of the unimaginative, and dangerous in the hands of a fool, as those intuitive methods always are. If intelligently used the experiment is useful in cases where it is a matter of an opaque structure. It often provides surprising insights. The most definite limit of the experiment is lack of intelligence and literal-mindedness of the observer. ... Undoubtedly astrology today is flourishing as never before in the past, but it is still most unsatisfactorily explored despite very frequent use. It is an apt tool only when used intelligently. It is not at all foolproof and when used by a rationalistic and narrow mind it is a definite nuisance. - C. G. Jung: Letters, volume 2, 1951-1961, pages 463-464, letter to Robert L. Kroon, 15 November 1958
213 VENUS SQUARE [OPPOSITE] URANUS
This like Venus conjunction Uranus (Venus in the same space with Uranus) in the quality of the emotional life. Read that paragraph. In addition to the characteristics given there, this will bring an additional somberness and sobriety to your outlook on human relations and will cause you at some time some considerable disappointment through misplaced or frustrated affections. You tend strongly to the unconventional in love matters, making a fetish of independence in your love-life. A certain austerity attaches to you, and you can be unyielding when it does not suit your purpose to yield, at which time your detachment and objectivity can amount to cruelty. But at other times look out for impulse and temperament, for this is an erratic and unreliable position and makes you liable to periodic destructive impulses.
203 VENUS CONJUNCTION URANUS
This gives an emotional nature alternately repressed and explosive, apparently somewhat conventional and cold but actually very independent and erratic in the love-life. A highly nervous quality accompanies all of your emotional dealings. You are an idealist in the realms of love, full of theories about sex and human relations in general, which complicate relationships that to other people are much more simple. You think much on emotional matters and are capable of hasty and jumpy action with respect to them; the motivating force behind your impulses is rational rather than physical"”you can be swept off your feet by an idea, an ideal, a theory, more quickly than by the physical beauty of an individual. This ideology of yours is likely to take quite unusual forms, and to lead to strange relationships among strange and out-of-the-way people, because of whom you gain the reputation for being an eccentric. With Venus conjunction Saturn [mentioned in a previous post] much trouble through emotional matters, and some isolation from ordinary social contacts in search of the sensational and bizarre. An idealistic, generalized, and humanistic quality colors all your emotions, and elevates them from the purely personal plane to a kind of abstracted passion.
"”-
Grant Lewi was born June 8, 1902 in Albany, New York. He was educated at Hamilton College and Columbia University. After graduating from Columbia, Lewi taught English at Dartmouth, at the University of North Dakota, and at the University of Delaware.
"”-
Another curiosity, psychologist Carl Jung:
While studying astrology I have applied it to concrete cases many times. ... The experiment is most suggestive to a versatile mind, unreliable in the hands of the unimaginative, and dangerous in the hands of a fool, as those intuitive methods always are. If intelligently used the experiment is useful in cases where it is a matter of an opaque structure. It often provides surprising insights. The most definite limit of the experiment is lack of intelligence and literal-mindedness of the observer. ... Undoubtedly astrology today is flourishing as never before in the past, but it is still most unsatisfactorily explored despite very frequent use. It is an apt tool only when used intelligently. It is not at all foolproof and when used by a rationalistic and narrow mind it is a definite nuisance. - C. G. Jung: Letters, volume 2, 1951-1961, pages 463-464, letter to Robert L. Kroon, 15 November 1958
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Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
Indeed I have! I read a bunch of his books when I was young. I still have them together with a bunch of his talks on cassette tapes (taped from a local radio station) and a couple on VHS. I have'nt read him for many years, but I'm glad I read him back then. It was vey inspiring to read a person who did'nt offer you any belief system and even warned against them saying it was up to the individual to find out things for oneself. If nothing else, it prevented me from being trapped in organized religion, which was very popular at the time with Jesus freak and guru's all over the place.
Thanks for the link, Mikey! I'll have a look at it.
(Btw. we've talked about Krishnamurti etc. before here on buknet. The thread must be here somewhere, in case anyone should be interested)
Oh yes, Rob! Plus I'm a bit of a rebel in that regard. I could never subscribe to a belief system and have religious middlemen (priests etc.) tell me what's right and wrong and how to perceive "God", if he exists. And when it comes to morals you don't need a belief system to tell you it's wrong to kill, steal etc. Nobody wants to be the victim of a crime, and therefore you don't engage in crime yourself. It's that simple, at least for me.
I like what he says about the dangers of practicing astrology, although he seems to believe in it himself and thinks it should only be practiced by the right persons - such as himself ;)
Thanks for the additional stuff on Buk's horoscope, Poptop! Lots of it could fit on Buk, I think, except for this maybe:
- I don't think Buk was into any ideals or theories, but I guess it should only be understood as a potential or tendency who might be realized or not by the individual.
It could be fun to take a random horoscope for another sign and see how much that would fit on Buk ;)
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Bukowski & Bacchus
I like very much asteroid Bacchus conjunct Hank's Mars.
Bacchus was the roman god of wine & beer,
Hank's favourite deity.
Moon is opposing Eris,
Eris is the goddes of strife,
suits well to "battling Bukowskis"
asteroid Linda is conj. his Sun,
Linda's were important in his life.
btw: 10 p.m. makes an ascendent Taurus
I like very much asteroid Bacchus conjunct Hank's Mars.
Bacchus was the roman god of wine & beer,
Hank's favourite deity.
Moon is opposing Eris,
Eris is the goddes of strife,
suits well to "battling Bukowskis"
asteroid Linda is conj. his Sun,
Linda's were important in his life.
btw: 10 p.m. makes an ascendent Taurus
Attachments
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
Welcome Harald, the mystery astrologer from Europe. Thank you.
So it will be easier to see:
(Old forum attachment ID is incorrect, see thumbnails.)
So it will be easier to see:
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mjp
Founding member
Cite all the written examples and post all the pretty charts you'd like. It's still delusional to claim or believe that the location of planets millions and billions of miles away had any impact on a new human's personality.
If any of this were true, it would seem to me that the the moment of conception would be when all those scary planets are wreaking their havoc on your unlived life. But no, it's the moment of birth that gives astrologers a hard on. Why? Because no one knows the exact time of their conception, and if the astrologers can't be "exact," they can't sell you a load of hokum and bullshit. And pretty charts.
Wouldn't objects much closer to you when you were conceived or born have a greater impact on you? Which creates more of a measurable disturbance in a room; a lamp or Uranus? The answer, for those of you playing along at home, is a lamp. So where are the lamps in my astrology reading? Why is no one asking me how many lights were on, what the temperature of the room was, or whether my dad was drunk?
Science cannot explain astrology, but it can identify, demonstrate and explain this effect. It's one that all you astrology adherents should read up on.
Astrology is just more wishful thinking. Answers for the unanswerable. Just like any other religion. And it fails on all the same fronts as any other religion.
If any of this were true, it would seem to me that the the moment of conception would be when all those scary planets are wreaking their havoc on your unlived life. But no, it's the moment of birth that gives astrologers a hard on. Why? Because no one knows the exact time of their conception, and if the astrologers can't be "exact," they can't sell you a load of hokum and bullshit. And pretty charts.
Wouldn't objects much closer to you when you were conceived or born have a greater impact on you? Which creates more of a measurable disturbance in a room; a lamp or Uranus? The answer, for those of you playing along at home, is a lamp. So where are the lamps in my astrology reading? Why is no one asking me how many lights were on, what the temperature of the room was, or whether my dad was drunk?
Science cannot explain astrology, but it can identify, demonstrate and explain this effect. It's one that all you astrology adherents should read up on.
Astrology is just more wishful thinking. Answers for the unanswerable. Just like any other religion. And it fails on all the same fronts as any other religion.
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
Okay, we know you think it is bunk and it may be.
I think besides the lamp they should consider who is there when you are born and what they do. My oldest son pissed on the nurse. Like a horse.
I think besides the lamp they should consider who is there when you are born and what they do. My oldest son pissed on the nurse. Like a horse.
Astrology does have one benefit: it generally annoys/offends religious types. ;)
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
Yeah, those religious types don't like being pissed on by horses either.;)
Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
On the contrary, religious types (psychologically speaking) loves belief systems and astrology is one of them, just like organized religions. - But I think I know what you mean, that people who subscribe to a specific organized religion don't like astrology. Of course they don't. If you subscribe to a certain belief system then you tend to view other belief systems as being wrong, because yours is the only correct one, that's why you have chosen it, of course. ;)
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I don't believe in any religions because I'm a Buddhist, and I don't believe in astrology because the position of Uranus when I was born made me a natural skeptic.
Spot on, bukfan.
The entire crux of why organized religion has contributed far more to the destruction of people than to the nurturing of them, which, in my mind, should have been the originally-intended purpose. If, in fact, there was one; you know, other than lining the Roman coffers with gold, frankincense and myrrh.
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I'm pretty sure the original purpose of organized religion was to appease that big shiny thing in the sky, and as mankind evolved it became a way to control people and make loads of cash. Well, that's the mental transmission my childhood dog Arfy just sent me from the afterlife anyway. He's usually spot on about these things. He's also trying to rid the world of child abuse and terrorists, but he doesn't have the proper funding. If anyone would like to make a difference send me a private message and I'll tell you how to send me the money so I can send it to Arfy and we can get this ball rolling.
"You have the power, but will you use it?"
-Arfy
"You have the power, but will you use it?"
-Arfy