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i'm pretty proud of that one...
Steve Richmond / Mr. Viced Honest
- Thread starter mickogrady
- Start date
i'm pretty proud of that one...
Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
I think both alcoholics and heroin addicts can write good stuff...and bad stuff, and so can sober persons. Being addicted to a substance does'nt necessarily enter into it, unless one is so drunk or stoned all the time that you can't function properly...
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mjp
Founding member
Oh bullshit. If you're comparing heroin to alcohol you've obviously never known a junkie. You can work at a desk right next to a full blown alcoholic. Your garden variety junkie is a useless pile of drooling, semi-human meat. Or mostly bone - very little meat.
I don't find anything junkies say, and nothing they write, interesting. They don't even even make any sense, except when they are asking you for money. Which, if you know them personally, will happen every day. On the days that they don't ask you for money it's because they stole something of yours and sold it to get your money.
And PS, come on man, don't give me that "Lennon was a junkie" bullshit. He was hardly a junkie. Using heroin doesn't make you a junkie. I doubt Lennon was sucking cocks behind the 7-11 for a hit of crack. Not saying that Richmond did either, but if you told me had, I wouldn't be at all surprised.
None of this has anything to do with human compassion. If Richmond was rolling around on the sidewalk in Pasadena I would stop and help him. I'm all for getting people off things that are ruining their lives (and ruining my life when I have to deal with them). But we're talking about writing, and junkie writing is boring. Yawn, yawn, yawn. Mumble. Nod. "Ooooohhhh, look at the SUNLIGHT maaaaaan!" "My cat is an Egyptian Pharaoh, maaaaaan!" "My toes! They are sticking out of my SOCKS! But the WORLD keeps on turning - or at least that's what they would have us believe, maaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!"
Who cares about that?
mjp, I love the fact that when someone provides some semblence of what happened back in the day that might even suggest that you just might be wrong, you go on the defensive like a pit-bull. I have no fucking clue whether sir John was a junkie (you spelled it junkie, but I spell it junky, que sera, sera), but hell, he did junk for a while. Never shot it, though. That's well established. But you said, and I quote, "and no good art ever came from heroin. None. Go ahead and list all your great heroin writers here - I know you all will - they are all shit."
So, no mention of "junky" there, was there?
You recently told me you love a good argument. Well, you got one.
Further, it is my understanding that most users of junk get "normal" from use, not "out there" like an acid-head. Sure, the first couple of minutes might be "hey I just might spontaneously ejaculate," but after that, it's a grounding device. Then, hell when it's over.
Then again, don't get me wrong: I will never espouse the use of that shit. And when you wrote:
"I don't find anything junkies say, and nothing they write, interesting. They don't even even make any sense, except when they are asking you for money. Which, if you know them personally, will happen every day. On the days that they don't ask you for money it's because they stole something of yours and sold it to get your money."
You were spot on. Lennon (and Clapton, et al., of course), had the $$$ to not annoy the general public. And they weren't junkies, per se. But your original premise was herion users, not junkies. Perhaps a slight distinction. Mea culpa if so.
So, no mention of "junky" there, was there?
You recently told me you love a good argument. Well, you got one.
Further, it is my understanding that most users of junk get "normal" from use, not "out there" like an acid-head. Sure, the first couple of minutes might be "hey I just might spontaneously ejaculate," but after that, it's a grounding device. Then, hell when it's over.
Then again, don't get me wrong: I will never espouse the use of that shit. And when you wrote:
"I don't find anything junkies say, and nothing they write, interesting. They don't even even make any sense, except when they are asking you for money. Which, if you know them personally, will happen every day. On the days that they don't ask you for money it's because they stole something of yours and sold it to get your money."
You were spot on. Lennon (and Clapton, et al., of course), had the $$$ to not annoy the general public. And they weren't junkies, per se. But your original premise was herion users, not junkies. Perhaps a slight distinction. Mea culpa if so.
chronic
old and in the way
Eric Clapton was at his best when he was using, which of course doesn't prove anything since he may have been even better during that period without the smack.
You haven't known too many junkies I take it. "Normal," to a junkie means not feeling like they're dying or wanting to rip their skin off. In the mid-late '70s I knew a lot of junkies and every single one of them ended up dead or in prison, and I assume that the ones I lost track of when they went to prison ended up dead later. I agree with mjp that if a junkie that you're friends with isn't asking for money it's probably because they already stole something from you to get it.
I gotta admit though, it's kind of fun to poke them with sharp objects while they're nodding.
You haven't known too many junkies I take it. "Normal," to a junkie means not feeling like they're dying or wanting to rip their skin off. In the mid-late '70s I knew a lot of junkies and every single one of them ended up dead or in prison, and I assume that the ones I lost track of when they went to prison ended up dead later. I agree with mjp that if a junkie that you're friends with isn't asking for money it's probably because they already stole something from you to get it.
I gotta admit though, it's kind of fun to poke them with sharp objects while they're nodding.
mjp
Founding member
I thought that was part of my charm?
We don't know for sure what Lennon wrote while directly under the influence of heroin, or how much of what he may have written under the influence was later re-worked (in order to sound like real music ;)). And, by the strict rules of junkies themselves, if he never stuck it directly into his veins, he was never a junkie.
I guess I meant junkie, junkies...the leeching, drooling, accidentally-burn-down-your-house-when-you-go-to-the-store-to-buy-beer kind.
Johnny Thunders was a unique, albeit vastly limited and simplistic, guitar player/junkie who I admired greatly when I was a youngster. But his style - such as it was - was developed before he discovered the joys of the needle. And all of his songs were written when he was not high. When they are really high junkies do the following; sleep as if they are in a coma. And that's all they do. When they are not asleep they are doing whatever they have to do to get more heroin so they can go back to coma land.
If a writer or musician that you respect resorts to heroin, you can be sure that any talent they had, and any great work they did, came either before or after the heroin. Nothing good comes during it. That's what I meant to say, but the post was already too long.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
Nick Cave has a bad junk habit. I would suspect that most of his stuff was written on junk.
Bill
Bill
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
We do love that mjp charm.
Great artist creates. Great artist makes big money. Great artist becomes famous. Great artist can't handle the attention. Great artist hides. Great artist wants to maintain that natural high. Great artist graduates to heroin. Great artist puts shotgun in mouth. Art of dead artist is worth more.
Steve Richmond is still alive. He can handle it.
Great artist creates. Great artist makes big money. Great artist becomes famous. Great artist can't handle the attention. Great artist hides. Great artist wants to maintain that natural high. Great artist graduates to heroin. Great artist puts shotgun in mouth. Art of dead artist is worth more.
Steve Richmond is still alive. He can handle it.
I heared he's been over that for a long time.
But 'Your funeral my trial' and 'Tender Prey' were two magnificent albums, both of which were written and produced under stong influence of H.
(Nick Cave once said in an interview, he needed a whole week just to sing the vocals of 'Slowly goes the night' due to his addiction and he could do this in 20 min now. Still I think he did a more than GREAT job on that song!)
oh, and there's Lou Reed of course.
and wasn't there David Bowie?
Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
What about Burroughs? I don't know if he was shooting heroin while he wrote Junky, but I'm pretty sure he shooting heroin or whatever, while he wrote Naked Lunch in Tangier. Of course, for those who don't like Naked Lunch it's just proves that you can't be creative while on drugs, I guess. My faves are Junky and Interzone, and both of them are pretty straight forward to read...
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Thankfully, no. But I knew a few people who've had people who were using work for them, and they were surprised to learn later that they were using. Maybe an exception to the rule. What you posted does certainly ring true.
Of course it is. It might actually be all of it. ;)
But ditto to what you posted, as per what I said to chronic above.
I know a lot of people that use of which a great share are artists. Believe me, there isn't a rule. Like there never is. It's not like 'oh you use it can't be good' or something. It all depends from person to person.
Black Swan
Abord the Yorikke!
barely alive.... but still busy with poetry. He is almost blind now.
M
Mather
I didn't even know Richmond did heroin, but when there's an entire thread here devoted to what everybody is drinking today, glorifying alcohol, it seems hypocritical to so vehemently bash the use of heroin. I just don't think Richmond was a writer in his heart and I see this when people like him disappear from the scene at a certain point...they throw in the towel because they were never up to it from the beginning...they drew all their strength from Buk...Bukowski never would have given up, because he was a WRITER through and through, up to his last breath, as has been discussed even in his dark decade he still wrote and submitted. I came across a 1997 copy of Atom Mind on my shelf with Buk on the cover and some excerpts from Richmond's "Spinning off Bukowski" which I owned at one time and thought a good book. Some really tender moments in there about Buk, I thought MUCH superior to Winan's book about Buk, but my point is Richmond wrote poetry because of Buk, his best book of prose was good but really only because of the true fact of Buk being in his life and giving him this material...and that's it. Heroin or no heroin, Richmond just is not a writer in his guts. When we are talking about Richmond we are really only talking about Buk.
As far as other books written on heroin, like Junky, I figure if a heroin user really wants to be a writer he/she/it can find a few hours of clarity in the day to write...really, Junky was only interesting as a sort of reportage of the underworld, nothing brilliant about it, and to read it now seems almost like an after school special.
I don't think anybody mentioned Jim Carroll, what the hell happened to him?
As far as other books written on heroin, like Junky, I figure if a heroin user really wants to be a writer he/she/it can find a few hours of clarity in the day to write...really, Junky was only interesting as a sort of reportage of the underworld, nothing brilliant about it, and to read it now seems almost like an after school special.
I don't think anybody mentioned Jim Carroll, what the hell happened to him?
mjp
Founding member
Right.
Because some of them are not junkies.
Tell you what, for anyone who is still confused about this, here's a special online-only deal: I will introduce you to a real junkie! Bring him around to your place.
Don't bother locking your valuables in a safe before they come, they'll figure out how take the whole safe while you're in the bathroom. They'll steal the neighbor kid's wagon and roll the safe out of your place. Then they'll wheel it through 14 miles of city streets until they get it downtown, where they'll get three more junkies to help them drag it up 10 flights of stairs and chuck it out a window to pop it open. If that doesn't work and it stays locked, they will put it into a shopping cart (they already sold the neighbor kid's wagon) and push it to the recycling center and sell it as scrap metal.
During all that you will notice that they have very little time to regale you with interesting stories, or write great poems or timeless music.
M
Mather
It's crystal meth around here, not heroin...I see them climbing the fences at 4:15 a.m. or walking down the middle of the street, jack-o-lantern-toothed white guys rubbing their abs...don't know if any of them write poetry...doubt it.
M
Mather
Someone did write a story like that, it's called the "Basketball diaries", which is funny I think...but I must have the "globally warned ignore the asshole alert" on my name again...
I recommend reading the true story of Christiane F, "Wir Kinder vom Bahnhof Zoo" and/or watching the movie. I'm sure there are translated versions of the book - the movie features her idol David Bowie with a live appearance.
For everyone who doesn't already know there's no poetry in heroin addiction, the book and the movie show clearly being a junkie = shit.
For everyone who doesn't already know there's no poetry in heroin addiction, the book and the movie show clearly being a junkie = shit.
M
Mather
There's poetry in everything...why the boundaries?
Johannes
Founding member
Yeah, but he too wrote it after he sobered up and didn't shoot junk anymore, didn't he?
Burroughs is an interesting example. He was definitly shooting H while writing Naked Lunch (and many others - he was addicted for a very long time). If there's some substantial art in it is up for discussion. I'd say yes, even tho I could never read through it.
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I think THIS
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...el=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&um=1
is what happened to him.
Don't know if he started using again, as reports of him at spoken word events awhile ago, might suggest.
I met him 12 years ago at a reading up in Taos, NM.
There was absolutely no bearing resemblance to the poet I saw, to the cadaver in that pic, up above.
He's 59 now.
I would imagine that he wrote the majority of his stuff awake, watching air move while waiting to score, not nodding off in a bathtub or blitzed out of his mind in some movie-esque junkie fantasy moment, rifling off poems in his notebook.
holy fuck that photo is horrifying!
speaking of theiving junkies, a friend of mine who's had trouble with drugs in the past recently went on a strung out rob all of your friends who still trust you spree. after losing his job, he moved in with one friend, earned his trust (oh, i'm not doing that shit anymore) and proceeded to steal his car and total it. then, on to another friend, robbed him, then moved on to ANOTHER friend- his last friend that still gave him a chance. while trusting friend was at work, junkie stole everything not bolted down and traded what he could to his drug dealer, the rest got tossed in the gutter. including ALL of his clothes. apparently junkie doesn't even remember doing most of it. how romantic those drugs can be! :rolleyes:
edit: so yea, post 75 was spot on, mjp...
speaking of theiving junkies, a friend of mine who's had trouble with drugs in the past recently went on a strung out rob all of your friends who still trust you spree. after losing his job, he moved in with one friend, earned his trust (oh, i'm not doing that shit anymore) and proceeded to steal his car and total it. then, on to another friend, robbed him, then moved on to ANOTHER friend- his last friend that still gave him a chance. while trusting friend was at work, junkie stole everything not bolted down and traded what he could to his drug dealer, the rest got tossed in the gutter. including ALL of his clothes. apparently junkie doesn't even remember doing most of it. how romantic those drugs can be! :rolleyes:
edit: so yea, post 75 was spot on, mjp...
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
I think it would be nice if one of the mods created a new thread about junkies from this thread for Steve Richmond. Especially if Mr. Richmond has cleaned up or is planning to. Of course if he is still using he won't give a shit.
That picture of Jim Carroll looks like he's longing for another fix.
That picture of Jim Carroll looks like he's longing for another fix.
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
Ignoring the biography, I find literary value in the words Steve wrote. There was more than just drugs going on. But drugs complicate it and dillute it and waste it in the long run. More than just Bukowski worship, too. I feel he was always a writer from the start, and will be to the end. But this thread has explained to me why so many people have a problem with his work.
M
Mather
Thanks for the picture of Carroll, Stallion, yes he still looks like he might use a little bit...of course how many people would cringe at a picture of Bukowski at sixty? I remember seeing Caroll read twice about 12-15 years ago in Seattle and Bellingham Washington and he held the podium literally as a balast, especially in Bellingham, the whole thing shaking from his hands and arms holding on, literally rumbling on the wooden theater stage. It shook the whole time, forty five minutes or something... At first it was strange and everybody mumbled and looked at each other...but after about ten minutes you just forgot about it and listened...I actually thought Carroll had a lot of promise...
And let's not forget the horrible way Buk behaved, especially as a younger drunk, intimidating liquor store clerks, etc. To live a life of heroin or hard booze is a dangerous road, and one of the amazing things about Buk was that he somehow kept it from completely destroying him...
That statement doesn't make any sense, as if only in a beautiful world is poetry possible. You make it seem like I am PRO child abuse, just because I think strong poetry can come from it.
I had an ex girlfriend who used to say to me when I was always trying to get her to read Buk. "You may find the life of a stupid drunk interesting, but I don't."
And let's not forget the horrible way Buk behaved, especially as a younger drunk, intimidating liquor store clerks, etc. To live a life of heroin or hard booze is a dangerous road, and one of the amazing things about Buk was that he somehow kept it from completely destroying him...
That statement doesn't make any sense, as if only in a beautiful world is poetry possible. You make it seem like I am PRO child abuse, just because I think strong poetry can come from it.
I had an ex girlfriend who used to say to me when I was always trying to get her to read Buk. "You may find the life of a stupid drunk interesting, but I don't."
Right.
But there are also a lot of people out there who admire his work.
I was thinking of giving examples while re-reading his books,
HEY, this is a great poem, or that one is even better!
No, it doesn't make sense. You like his work or you don't.