The campaign to save Bukowski's De Longpre bungalow

[mjp]

Again, I never insinuated that anyone was getting rich.

There is a fundamental issue involved, and that is where there is profit, motivation is skewed.

That isn't an idea I pulled out of my ass. Scientists have long realized that the act of observing something inevitably changes the thing you are observing. If you want some real put-you-to-sleep literature, read about Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. That principle has been extracted out to a hundred different areas of study. Sociologists readily adopted it because they could see that observing people affects their behavior.

So you introduce a variable (like profit) into a scenario and those involved are subject to influence of the variable. It's human nature, there's nothing sinister about it.

Why do I care? Well, I have been dicking around online for more years than I care to admit to, and going way back to the early days of usenet, these interesting sociological issues have been out there for everyone to see. Forums like this one are an especially fertile ground for "back room" collusion as a form of pushing an idea forward. Here comes Joe with an idea, suddenly, three people you've never seen before are backing up and agreeing with Joe. Where did they come from? Usually they already know Joe and they are chiming in to help him make his point.

esotouric came to these forums to promote their business. Usually we frown on that, but there was interest in what they do, and it was Bukowski related, so what the hell, let it slide. When a few people expressed doubt or disinterest in the subject of DeLongpre - a subject esotouric introduced - suddenly Hindinwood appears out of nowhere to bolster esotouric's view. That made me wonder who was who, that's all.

We pretty much know who the regulars are around here and where they stand. I think that openness is a big part of what keeps this from becoming a typically tiresome "You suck and your momma's ugly!" hellhole. So I'm just curious about who everyone is.

Yawn, yawn. I know, this is boring.

Anyway, I said I have mixed feelings about what Richard and Kim do because of Esotouric, and that's my own problem. Mixed - that means good, as well as wary. I appreciate anyone's efforts to maintain what little history Los Angeles will grudgingly allow us to keep clear of the wholesale rebuild that some city planners would like to see.

I think Ken Kesey said, "You're either on the bus, or you're off the bus." So it's not just me - busses have been polarizing the god damn nation for decades!

i mean come on... if you wanted to get rich, would literary bus tours really be your hot ticket?

Hell no. I would start a forum!

 

[Hindinwood]

Again, I never insinuated that anyone was getting rich.


esotouric came to these forums to promote their business. Usually we frown on that, but there was interest in what they do, and it was Bukowski related, so what the hell, let it slide. When a few people expressed doubt or disinterest in the subject of DeLongpre - a subject esotouric introduced - suddenly Hindinwood appears out of nowhere to bolster esotouric's view. That made me wonder who was who, that's all.

Okay MJP:
For the last time, I contacted Richard through his blog on De Longpre. If you would like, give me your private email address and I will forward you the correspondance. Seriously.
To explain why I am "bolstering their view" - I think the building should be saved. Kim and Richard think the building should be saved, ergo we ALL think the building should be saved. There's a mathamatical proof for you, to make it clearer. Make a ven diagram if you wish. Please prove to me now, how that in any way indicates a prior relationship. I would LOVE to hear your explanation.
Oh, the reason I "appeared out of nowhere", as you put it, is because I would prefer to spend my time READING the books I like, rather than engaging in counter-productive sniping like this forum.

 

[cirerita]

sniping is known to be very productive in this and other "forums", even if it really pisses off lotta folks...

 

[Hindinwood]

Do explain. All I see is three people who are putting a lot of work into something, and then a few other people sitting on their asses being snide. No?

 

[bospress.net]

Have you read any thread on this forum that did not involve you?

Maybe that is part of the issue. You do not know the makeup of this forum as maybe you have not read other posts.

You see people as snide when their goal is also to preserve Bukowski's legacy. There are people on this forum that have been fighting to preserve Bukowski much longer than you. This forum is a prime example. When people first hear about Bukowski it is here that they come first. This forum and actually reading the books is where they get the info. They see his legacy differently than you do maybe. We have the words. The building is not that important. There are thousands of poems that are Bukowski more than a bungalow that he lived in. That is not to say that it is not important to try to save it.

That being said, I wish you all the best in your attempt at saving DeLongpre and do hope that it is a success.

I also see where others are coming from.

Bill

 

[Hindinwood]

Yes, I have read several other threads, and for the most part people seem to be having respectful intelligent deiscussions. I guess I'm just pretty shocked at some of the hostility I have encountered here. There are people who have never met me and know nothing of my character insinuating that I am involved in some kind of financial scheme with Richard and Kim, when I have put a lot of work into this, and it's something I would think other Bukowski fans would at least appreciate from afar, even if they don't want to get involved.
I understand that the philosophy of preservation isn't for everyone, and I agree, in the end the work is much more important than any building. All I know is, I would much rather that structure be there than another condo. It's a bigger picture issue for me. I think Los Angeles as a city needs to slow it way down with development, and make sure they are keeping things worth keeping, cause once it's gone it's gone.
Anyhow, it's always fine to have differing opinions with people, but that's no reason to leap to all kinds of hyperbole about gift shops and amusement parks. If MJP wanted to know what my ideal outcome for the building was, all he had to do is ask.
I appreciate your response though.

 

[1fsh2fsh]

God I love passion!... but, I think that passion is mostly personal.. it's hard to see through this when one is so entrenched in a quest. the best that can be done is to present an idea and hope that others may find it as important and/or enlightening that they may join in the struggle. unfortunatly(sp?) by presenting ones passions one is also asking for critisisim (sorry, to drunk to spell, to lazy to look it up) I believe that if one is totally convicted to one's beliefs that no defense is necessary. no matter what the insinuations ($). Do what you feel is right, Damn the opinions. In the end whether you win or just fight a damn good battle, at least you have tried. (remember Nicholson in kook koo's nest?) and that should be enough. ok, I'm bored with this thread now... good luck with your prodject..... man, I gotta hide this keyboard when I start drinking this early in the day.....

 

[mjp]

I guess I'm just pretty shocked at some of the hostility I have encountered here.

If you wanted the seas to part and your ass to be slathered with wet kisses of gratitude, perhaps you should have introduced yourself. Then people could have given you the accolades you so richly deserve.

See, now that's hostility! Just so you know how to identify it in the future. There is sarcasm in there too, see if you can find it.

When I read your responses I have to wonder why I bothered to type any kind of explanation of the point I was trying to get across, and how that point does or doesn't catch you in its ugly headlights.

But for anyone else still reading this, please note: I bear no ill will to the cabal! Forgive me for daring to question their pure and selfless actions!

I will buy the tshirt! I will drink the Kool-aid!

Jesus fucking christ.

Save the whales!

 

[jordan]

Thanks, Jordan. That's about how we look at it. (PS we do true crime tours, too... but we're such money-grubbers that we focus on obscure, offbeat and historic crimes rather than the famous ones.)

i do wish that you (and by "you" i mean "kim," since i'm assuming that only one person is posting under the "esotouric" name) would post in other threads on the forum, though. the more the merrier.

also, see the above post... i helped get you another customer.

 

[gonzalowski]

Hi All,
get ready...i'll come up with my coments later...

 

[1fsh2fsh]

Oh Christ,.. another fucking opinion....

 

[jordan]

Again, I never insinuated that anyone was getting rich.

There is a fundamental issue involved, and that is where there is profit, motivation is skewed.

That isn't an idea I pulled out of my ass. Scientists have long realized that the act of observing something inevitably changes the thing you are observing. If you want some real put-you-to-sleep literature, read about Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. That principle has been extracted out to a hundred different areas of study. Sociologists readily adopted it because they could see that observing people affects their behavior.

So you introduce a variable (like profit) into a scenario and those involved are subject to influence of the variable. It's human nature, there's nothing sinister about it.

Why do I care? Well, I have been dicking around online for more years than I care to admit to, and going way back to the early days of usenet, these interesting sociological issues have been out there for everyone to see. Forums like this one are an especially fertile ground for "back room" collusion as a form of pushing an idea forward. Here comes Joe with an idea, suddenly, three people you've never seen before are backing up and agreeing with Joe. Where did they come from? Usually they already know Joe and they are chiming in to help him make his point.

esotouric came to these forums to promote their business. Usually we frown on that, but there was interest in what they do, and it was Bukowski related, so what the hell, let it slide. When a few people expressed doubt or disinterest in the subject of DeLongpre - a subject esotouric introduced - suddenly Hindinwood appears out of nowhere to bolster esotouric's view. That made me wonder who was who, that's all.

We pretty much know who the regulars are around here and where they stand. I think that openness is a big part of what keeps this from becoming a typically tiresome "You suck and your momma's ugly!" hellhole. So I'm just curious about who everyone is.

Yawn, yawn. I know, this is boring.

Anyway, I said I have mixed feelings about what Richard and Kim do because of Esotouric, and that's my own problem. Mixed - that means good, as well as wary. I appreciate anyone's efforts to maintain what little history Los Angeles will grudgingly allow us to keep clear of the wholesale rebuild that some city planners would like to see.

I think Ken Kesey said, "You're either on the bus, or you're off the bus." So it's not just me - busses have been polarizing the god damn nation for decades!

okay, i'm going to respond to this, even though i told myself i wouldn't. and not because i don't think you're making a valid point, but because this has all the signature signs of a "forum spat," in which two people go on ad nauseum defending a position that becomes increasingly isolated from the original thread topic, mostly due to the lack of argumentative closure that forum posting offers (my goal is to make this a 10-page thread.. you with me, mjp?).

i liken this situation to when i worked simultaneously in the bike industry and in trail advocacy. i think your argument applies pretty well to that situation: the more trails open to ride, the more people are on bikes. the more trails near the shop where i worked, the more people will come to that shop to buy bikes. thus, working in trail advocacy was tainted (or whatever you want to call it) by my commercial interest to drive business to the store. compound that with the fact that the store maintained a presence a lot of advocacy events and handed out flyers and coupons and shit. total phonies, right?

but, beyond the store, beyond my paycheck, beyond any economic impact, the closure of a favorite trail stings much worse... honestly, the economic impacts of it are limited, since there are a whole lot of woods in LA and environs. plus, building up the advocacy platform from within the commercial structure of the bike shop allowed the shop to serve as a central meeting place for volunteers and trail workers as well. did the shop make any money off of the advocacy ventures? probably (although it put just as much if not more money into said ventures). will the esotouric bus tour be better as a result of passing buk's old apartment? yes. but a direct-marketing campaign would have been a much more lucrative use of esotouric's time than the hours put into saving this property.

okay, time for a point, for those of you that skipped to the end. you're saying that financial incentive has a necessary corrupting influence. i'm saying that preservation and advocacy work necessarily stems from a real desire to effect a positive outcome on the city, the forest, wherever.

seriously, that kind of work is such an enormous pain in the ass, it doesn't pay to get involved in it unless you really care...

now, as for the perceived lack of forum etiquette, i could see that being a sticking point for an emily-post-of-the-internet curmudgeon such as yourself.

Hi All,
get ready...i'll come up with my coments later...

are you preparing comments based on reading about this issue here and peoples' reactions to it?

or are you involved with the preservation effort somehow (i ask, because you registered tonight and then jumped right in on this thread).

despite my snarky comments to mjp, it probably wouldn't hurt to introduce yourself if the latter is the case.

 

[esotouric]

Below is one proposal for a future use of the De Longpre property, assuming it receives landmark status and/or is purchased by someone sympathetic to preservation. Other suggestions and feedback welcome. Commercial use won't actually cut it in that neighborhood, so I wouldn't suggest putting too much time into envisioning Bukland the amusement park, much as urban LA needs more amusement parks. Did you know we once had thousands of rooftop miniature golf courses? All gone, and not likely to come again.

American author Charles Bukowski's longtime East Hollywood residence at 5124 De Longpre Avenue is currently under consideration for landmarking by the Cultural Heritage Commission of the City of Los Angeles. If the application for historic-cultural monument status is successful, then it will be necessary to determine the building's future role in the community.

Our proposal calls for the property, which is currently vacant and boarded up, to be purchased from the current owner at market value. The four individual bungalow units and the two unit main house in back will all be renovated. The property will then be reopened as a non-profit artist's retreat.

This non-profit, which in this proposal we will call The Bukowski Bungalow Endowment, will provide free or low cost housing for period of four months to one year to two different types of creative people.

One of the bungalows and one unit in the main house will be made available for four months to established, mid-career artists in the fields of writing, photography, painting/drawing, film or theater who are interested in producing a piece of work on the subject of Los Angeles. These Bukowski Fellows will be selected by a Board of Directors based on their proposals submitted to the Bukowski Bungalow Endowment.

Two of the bungalows and one unit in the main house will be made available for one year to individuals currently working in manual labor trades, having spent at least the past five years working similar jobs, who have artistic ambitions in the fields of writing, photography, painting/drawing, film or theater. These Bukowski Fellows will be selected by the Board of Directors based on their proposals and biographies submitted to the Bukowski Bungalow Endowment. While some weight will be given to those who have worked longer at manual employment, all Fellows will be selected based on the quality and promise shown by their work.

The front bungalow, which was Charles Bukowski's residence, will be restored to the condition in which it was at the time Bukowski lived there, and will be used as a community space shared by the Bukowski Fellows, with occasional public events including but not limited to screenings, art exhibits, musical performances, etc.

At the end of their residence on De Longpre, all Bukowski Fellows will be expected to make an excerpt of their work available for publication, screening or showing to the East Hollywood community.

We believe that this property has the potential to make a lasting contribution to the cultural life of the East Hollywood community and to honor the legacy of Bukowski's great transformation from blue collar worker to literary superstar. We call on the City of Los Angeles, our local and national cultural institutions and members of the public to assist in the transformation of this boarded-up bungalow complex to a world class artistic retreat.

 

[chronic]

The front bungalow, which was Charles Bukowski's residence, will be restored to the condition in which it was at the time Bukowski lived there...

I'll donate the empty beer cans.

 

[jordan]

while terms like "bukowski fellows" and "bukowski endowment" make me cringe, i think this is a fantastic idea (and i see the utility of those terms from a pragmatic edge).

and here, i was waiting for the proposal to earmark the property as the new corporate headquarters of Esotouric, Inc. and its army of buses.

 

[Hindinwood]

When I read your responses I have to wonder why I bothered to type any kind of explanation of the point I was trying to get across, and how that point does or doesn't catch you in its ugly headlights.

Once again, I have nothing to do with the bus tour, and that is what I was explaining in my responses.

 

[Father Luke]

The front bungalow, which was Charles Bukowski's residence, will be restored to the condition in which it was at the time Bukowski lived there, and will be used as a community space shared by the Bukowski Fellows, with occasional public events including but not limited to screenings, art exhibits, musical performances, etc.

I'll donate the empty beer cans.

heh. Beat me to it, chronic.
Snort, guffaw, etc... .

 

[esotouric]

Los Angeles Times lead editorial asks "How to Commemorate Bukowski?"

How to commemorate Bukowski?

The literary anti-hero's apartment may become a landmark, but how do you memorialize such a dark icon?

September 22, 2007

Devotees and detractors of poet and novelist Charles Bukowski can agree on at least one thing: that he was a quintessentially Los Angeles writer. His gruff chronicling of the hard-knock life -- mostly his own, indirectly -- depicted the city in which he lived (for nearly all of his 73 years), loved (to put it gently) and drank (a lot).

Now the city has a chance to lay official claim to its local anti-hero by declaring a bungalow apartment Bukowski once rented a historic landmark. Memorializing the residence -- where, over a decade, the postal worker became a professional writer -- makes sense, even if it's a contrarian way to remember a man whose gravestone reads "Don't try."

The city's Cultural Heritage Commission, along with the City Council, will make a final decision on whether the site merits historic designation in about 60 days. The case seems to be a strong one. Bukowski wrote his first novel there and used it as the setting for another; he referred to the address in one poem ("5124 De Longpre Avenue/ somewhere between/ alcoholism and/ madness"); and mostly, he lived his hard life there.

Bukowski was -- despite the fame, the movie-star friends, the imitation of his life and style by would-be poets -- too brutally honest to be glamorous, a quality that gives much Los Angeles noir a slick sheen quite distinct from Bukowski's grit. If noir subverted Los Angeles' official narrative of sunshine, Bukowski subverted noir and gave the city's image another, darker dimension.

It's not easy to memorialize such a milieu. How does a city preserve its underbelly? And isn't its preservation better accomplished in Bukowski's well-read works? He mapped his Los Angeles in great detail, in fiction and life. His fans can list his many addresses. They know that the Central Library is where he was inspired to become a writer; that he turned his toil at the Terminal Annex Post Office into a novel; that he made bets at the Santa Anita racetrack, drank at Musso & Frank and died in San Pedro.

To pick one place to officially associate with the man would seem to limit his legacy. But it's still a good way for his hometown to honor him. And Bukowski would certainly enjoy the irony. As he wrote in his poem "Crucifix in a Deathhand":

real estaters, subdividers, landlords, freeway

engineers arguing. This is their land and

I walk on it, live on it a little while.

Now 5124 De Longpre, and the rest of Los Angeles, could be considered Bukowski's land.

LINK

 

[mjp]

get ready...i'll come up with my coments later...

Thanks for the heads up. I will spend the rest of the evening getting ready for your comments.

 

[Erik]

I may be going a off-topic here, but I've seen both the Ibsen and Strindberg (cool author!) apartments in Oslo & Stockholm, and they're alright. Worth a visit if you're interested in the author. The Ibsen one has a shop, but its a far cry from Disneyland. And I confess: I bought a t-shirt!
One funny thing about Ibsen, there's a full scale replica of him there: the guy was tiny - a runt!
Imagine seeing a full scale replica of Buk leering at you from a glass monitor!

:D

Sure these places are touristy, but they do a lot of free work for schools & such as well. They need the extra money. And they are not run on a Disney-like profit basis.

You can have a taste of what they've done with Ibsen here: http://www.exploreibsen.com/

 

[mjp]

you're saying that financial incentive has a necessary corrupting influence.

Correct. Well, me and science and a million other people.

i'm saying that preservation and advocacy work necessarily stems from a real desire to effect a positive outcome on the city, the forest, wherever.

I think I said that too, re: the people behind Esotouric.

Where we seem to disagree is that you think one precludes the other, I don't. You can have a heartfelt, passionate interest in something and still be affected by outside influences.

Again, I hope the "save DeLongpre" efforts are successful.

 

[poptop]

Below is one proposal for a future use of the De Longpre property, assuming it receives landmark status and/or is purchased by someone sympathetic to preservation.

Hi Esotouric,

I'm a former regular around here and new to this thread, but the Bukowski landmark project is an interesting one because it goes against the grain of the usual "destroy and replace" mentality of L.A. where I lived for 19 years. I'd like to see it go through and I'm looking farther into the project to see what it'll take to get it passed. Whether the project sustains itself even if approved is something that will only be proven in time. But it interests me that it has a chance to either fail or succeed. I'm surprised the proposal has made it as far as it has. A bit of a miracle.

Best wishes to all.

Poptop

 

[esotouric]

LA the palimpsest

Hi Poptop,

Thanks for the support and the interest. If you'd like to be part of the action as the project moves forward, there's room on the team. Just sign up at the website to get email alerts, or drop an email if you'd like to volunteer in any capacity. We welcome anyone who would like to be of help in any way.

I grew up in Hollywood, and the tear down mentality breaks my heart and scars my brain. A personal example: on returning to LA after six years away in the early '90s, I became so disoriented at the corner of La Brea and Sunset, not recognizing the buildings around me, that I thought I was losing my mind. But no, it's just that LA has lost any sense of place and history it ever had.

Not everything old is worth saving. Not everything new is bad. But some things simply cry out for preservation, and when that cry is loud enough, people will do something about it. Last year, quite unexpectedly, I found that the loss of the Union 76 Ball upset me. So I asked my husband to build a website, and we publicized our concerns. Thousands of people agreed, and were glad to have a place where they could make it known that they didn't want the Ball to go. And one year later, ConocoPhillips announced they had made a mistake and would preserve some orange Balls for museums, and manufacture red ones for some of their stations. I'm just glad we had the tools to provide a place where all those voices could be heard, and to amplify them.

Preservation is very different in the internet era. We can now mobilize and publicize threatened buildings almost instantly, gather supporters, communicate, strategize and sometimes, when we're very lucky and the cause is right, even win. It used to be a lot harder. We stand on the shoulders of giants, of martyrs.

 

[Hindinwood]

5124 De Longpre - 2nd Round Hearing

Hi all,
I know not everyone is into this, but if you'd like to attend the 2nd Cultural Heritage Commission meeting for 5124 De Longpre, it will be next Thursday the 15th, in room 1010 of City Hall (200 Spring st.) at 10am.
They have toured the property, and will be evaluating how significant the residence was in relation to his writing career. In my opinion, they seem pretty supportive, but it always helps to have reinforcements. So, if you'd like to come, see you there...
-Lauren

 

[bernard stachman]

fuck...sometimes i wish i could get on a plane now to la and make this shit. 12 hours to the west for me.

 

[roni]

true.

 

[Domator]

fuck...sometimes i wish i could get on a plane now to la and make this shit.

Believe me, sometimes i feel exactly the same when i read about some events or places in LA (or even in USA) on this forum. :)

 

[dogdice]

East Hollywood is nothing to shout about. Most of the people there would probably swap places with you given a half a chance.

 

[Hindinwood]

Landlord hopes to defame Bukowski by citing a discredited memoir

Okay, I know this has been alluded to in other threads, but I'm wondering if anyone can help me with what comments were actually made, and where they can be found....

 

[bospress.net]

oh Jesus....

Seriously though. They were made in the Ben Pleasants book "visceral Bukowski" and probably from an internet article before that. I believe that it has also been brought up in some of the biographies. There are two sides on this one. Either he was a Nazi sympathizer (which would not make much sense given what we know about him some and his close friendships in his later years) or that he was just playing it up to be confrontational.

Linda Bukowski has ferociously denied that he was a Nazi sympathiser. Of course, she has a vested interest, but that does not make what she says untrue. Also, people of that generation were not as politically correct as we are today. It was a different time and people that were a little anti-semetic may be seen as Nazi Sympathisers today, but that the time (pre WWII) most of the country had some degree of anti-Semitism in them.

I guess that no one knows 100% if he was or not, but I seriously doubt that he was. this is not because I think that he was a saint and certainly had his other faults, which is the subjejt of other threads...

Bill