The Fermi paradox (a.k.a. Where all the aliens at?)
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Skygazer
And in the end...
This next decade will see more answers, with astrophysicists etc. finally getting lucky! The new James Webb Space Telescope which will, supercede Hubble ( ps, some beautiful photos on NASA's website for Hubble's 25th birthday).
But it's only really through Hubble and Keplar space observatory that they now know as fact that every star you look up at has at least one planet, difficulty is seeing the little faint tiny objects against their star, but that is being overcome with starlight shields for space telescopes, to view the planets better (exoplanets that is).
Are there other little blue dots out there? Yes, have to be.But do we want to find them, we seem to swither between our fear of being alone and wanting to be sociable, to the stranger danger terror of invasion by big tin men, or Donald Sutherland - even scarier.
But it's only really through Hubble and Keplar space observatory that they now know as fact that every star you look up at has at least one planet, difficulty is seeing the little faint tiny objects against their star, but that is being overcome with starlight shields for space telescopes, to view the planets better (exoplanets that is).
Are there other little blue dots out there? Yes, have to be.But do we want to find them, we seem to swither between our fear of being alone and wanting to be sociable, to the stranger danger terror of invasion by big tin men, or Donald Sutherland - even scarier.
mjp
Founding member
And I suspect that those answers will point more and more toward us being alone. In the galaxy if not the entire universe. If we ever do "discover life" elsewhere it will likely be microbial and therefore not much in the way of a new friend.
One of the interesting points that (first) video makes is that if a society was advanced enough to get past the point of self destruction they would have probably been around long enough - and be sufficiently in control of this galaxy - to have contacted us already. Unless they are simply waiting for the perfect time to exterminate us.
It's very self-centeredly human to assume that any advanced form of life out there in the universe would even look like us. The little green (or grey) men with the enlarged heads to hold their super brains. It's such an unimaginative 1950s view of things. I doubt we'd even recognize another civilization if it was standing - or pooling, or floating - right in front of us. We can't even admit that we're heating up the Earth's atmosphere.
It's also unimaginative to believe that another civilization would somehow help us with some advanced technology or knowledge. People who really believe things like that are just like people who believe in the bible or some other scriptures, looking to the sky for answers to questions that have no answers. Waiting for daddy to come lay down the rules that will make everything better. That kind of magical thinking is what allows the there-is-no-such-thing-as-climate-change crowd to seem rational and believable to a lot of people.
No one is coming. To save us or exterminate us.
And why the hell would you want them to? It couldn't end well, methinks.
Skygazer
And in the end...
Well, this may be the only Bukowski.net in the Milky Way, but who knows about the rest of the universe:wb:.
As for intelligent life,yes we probably are on our own in this galaxy, but we will find biological organisms on the 20 billion earth like planets here.
As soon as life can form on a planet - it does, but it needs liquid water, carbon based molecules and an energy source compatible, not too hot, or too cold (and that might not always be the case, either).
As to the entire universe; infinite? with it's 300 billion galaxies (give or take) there ought to be intelligent life elsewhere given the life forming matter that kicked things off here with the early comet bombardments, also occurred elsewhere.
Why do we want to poke our noses in - because that's what we do, for better or worse it's not really about finding a big daddy or a savior.
mjp
Founding member
Life as we know it needs those things. That's what I mean when I say we assume "life" always has to mimic what we consider to be "life." And again why we may not even have the ability to recognize an other or new kind of "life."
Not for scientists, no. I was talking about the UFO kooks. They are the ones looking for a savior.
It's a good thing no one or no thing is coming here to Earth anyway. Think about it. Most of the people in "developed" countries don't even like human immigrants.
So all them rednecks what got "probed" is jes hawgwarsh? Jes don seem raght.
the only good poet
One retreat after another without peace.
Hosh
hoshomccreesh.com
Here's a compelling sign of intelligent life: that they don't come here!
But seriously folks: if there is, or if there isn't...it won't matter. Unless something drops right in our proverbial lap, we won't be able to go find it, and even if we did, we couldn't get to it...and then even if we did, 20% of the people would scream at the top of their lungs on every talk radio show about how it's not real anyway.
That's IF we are really real...and not just random pulses of bio-electricity rippling through the tainted meat of the organism we are actually contained within all while deluding ourselves that we're experiencing consciouness subjectively and excercising some kind of control or free will!
Now's the part where Keanu Reeves says "whoa." (At least in my little corner of the tainted meat)
But seriously folks: if there is, or if there isn't...it won't matter. Unless something drops right in our proverbial lap, we won't be able to go find it, and even if we did, we couldn't get to it...and then even if we did, 20% of the people would scream at the top of their lungs on every talk radio show about how it's not real anyway.
That's IF we are really real...and not just random pulses of bio-electricity rippling through the tainted meat of the organism we are actually contained within all while deluding ourselves that we're experiencing consciouness subjectively and excercising some kind of control or free will!
Now's the part where Keanu Reeves says "whoa." (At least in my little corner of the tainted meat)
I'm waiting for our inter-dimensional dinosaur masters to come flying out of the volcanoes in their gigantic crystalline space arks and tell us that they turned the universe inside out just for a laugh and now they're going to vaporise us all with their lucasfilm-style laser blasters because we've been boring them for the last 2000 years or so and frankly eating us would be too much of a chore.
mjp
Founding member
You don't have to wait, just join Scientology.
Gah; I'm a scientist to put food on the table. I don't believe in anything, although if I can convince myself on where to stand on a particular issue, I just might do it. I'm not sanctimonious nor ignorant. I'm a lefty with no agenda other than to state that Mingus is better than Scott Thunes (but not that much better). I think global warming will happen anyway, but I also think that we'd be retarded to do nothing. For some reason, there's dissention on this issue. Not because it's right or wrong, but because one side makes you X vs. Y. Stupidity defined.
Hosh
hoshomccreesh.com
Too true. Only God can. Bill Hicks does a bit where he asks why there is no mention of dinosaurs in the bible. The response: "God put them there to test our faith." To which Bill said "I think he put you here to test my faith."
As for global warming: Why don't the doubters just have faith that it could be true? I mean, they don't want to go to the afterlife not believing...just in case...so why not just believe that global warming could be true...just in case?
What's the downside?
"Oh, turns out the planet's just going through a little recalibration...oops, our bad! Everything's fine!"
Isn't that better than: "Oops, we've ruined a planet we can't escape...our bad!"
It's like setting your house on fire just to find out if it's flammable.
Skygazer
And in the end...
Two words - mendacity.Governments are aware of the reports, but there is an information war going on and ultimately it will come down to significant changes in our lifestyles in the developed world and maybe we love our cars more than the planet.
Of course we do.
Alternative technologies have long been available, but governments (= the oil industry) are not really interested in a change. As long as oil production or anything else is profitable, we will exploit the resources. Nobody cares about consequences or long-term effects. And that's why the existence of humans on this planet will only be temporary. Too dumb, too greedy.
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Skygazer
And in the end...
More damaging than that it's active disinformation and muddying of the bulk scientific evidence:
Between 2002 and 2010, conservative billionaires secretly donated nearly $120 million (£77 million) via two trusts (Donors Trust and Donors Capital Fund) to more than 100 organizations seeking to cast doubt on the science behind climate change.[19]
This is a quote from the tobacco industry but weirdly enough, their methods are the same.
"Doubt is our product since it is the best means of competing with the "body of fact" that exists in the mind of the general public. It is also the means of establishing a controversy."[35] As the 1990s progressed ... TASSC began receiving donations from Exxon (among other oil companies) and its "junk science" website began to carry material attacking climate change science.
—Clive Hamilton, Requiem for a Species: Why We Resist the Truth about Climate Change
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/feb/14/funding-climate-change-denial-thinktanks-network
I've been following this thread closely, and so far have understood virtually nothing, except the part where Bill Hicks and a dinosaur smoked a Winston Light with Jesus on Enrico Fermi' s yacht. Good stuff!
zobraks
Moderator
:D
Welcome to the club!
"They're made out of meat."
"Meat?"
"Meat. They're made out of meat."
"Meat?"
"There's no doubt about it. We picked up several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, and probed them all the way through. They're completely meat."
"That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars?"
"They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines."
"So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact."
"They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines."
"That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat."
"I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in that sector and they're made out of meat."
A little while later:
"They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?"
"Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat."
"I thought you just told me they used radio."
"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat."
"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?"
"Officially or unofficially?"
"Both."
"Officially, we are required to contact, welcome and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in this quadrant of the Universe, without prejudice, fear or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing."
"I was hoping you would say that."
"It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?"
"I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say? 'Hello, meat. How's it going?'
"Meat?"
"Meat. They're made out of meat."
"Meat?"
"There's no doubt about it. We picked up several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, and probed them all the way through. They're completely meat."
"That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars?"
"They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines."
"So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact."
"They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines."
"That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat."
"I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in that sector and they're made out of meat."
A little while later:
"They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?"
"Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat."
"I thought you just told me they used radio."
"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat."
"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?"
"Officially or unofficially?"
"Both."
"Officially, we are required to contact, welcome and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in this quadrant of the Universe, without prejudice, fear or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing."
"I was hoping you would say that."
"It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?"
"I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say? 'Hello, meat. How's it going?'
Skygazer
And in the end...
Sorry Andreas! the only one I meant for reading was the Guardian one, about our downtrodden billionaires having to circle the wagons.
Honestly, I haven't read any books on climate change, but I do read what's in the press and on the internet, poor excuse really. But this is a bit interesting:
This piece looked at the published climate change denial books up to 2010, it's findings were; most of them from publishing houses had links to conservative think tanks, either by lay people of a conservative bent, or contrarian scientists whose books were not subject to peer review. Several prominent ones were linked to the petro-chemical industry, ditto self published ones.You just have to follow the money really, to see where the denial is coming from:
Not compulsory though:)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3787818/