The Slapping Scene

[HenryChinaski]

why would you be shocked?

you get enough wine in you and you'll do damn near anything.
probably wont remember it in the morning either.

 

[poptop]

Truly surprising...not.

Let's please have another reality check here on this
uncomfortable little episode.

Linda was slightly slurring her speech...something I've never
heard her or any one admit to ... and appeared just as
smashed as Hank was... or even moreso, as he could at least
get his words out without her noticeable wow and flutter.
...Gee... a heated argument between two drunks... how so
very original and refreshing, lol. Upon repeated viewings
of this segment, I'd have to say that Linda wasn't exactly
at her best either, and not to excuse Hank's behavior, but they
both appeared to contribute equally to this entertaining but
unpleasant taunting incident. I bet they had at least one or two
bottles of wine each under their pelts before the fun
began... I mean, belts... and then the back-and-forth started,
each in their own rose-colored reality, as he felt inspired to
begin his game of kick-the-Meyer Baba disciple and tentative
girlfriend of the moment. (Drinking was a religion to him,
but I always wondered how she justified her boozing excesses on
spiritual grounds when it's considered a no-no by most teachers
of meditation and other spiritual practices... Perhaps the good
Lord reveals himself in mysterious ways.) In any event, I view
this as an instructive lesson for all the unrepentant guzzlers in
the world, both man and woman alike, starting from San Pedro
and extending to the Vatican, the seat of all unreality and evil
except for Washington D.C. Wow and flutter indeed. ;-)

"”Poptop.

 

[the only good poet]

the scene DID and DID'NT have anything to do with alcohol: bukowski was insecure - he was a home-body and had this beautiful female 25yrs his junior, comfortable in her skin, christ! you can read a book but -

 

[the only good poet]

i think i was on the "boards" a little too long last night.

i think it spelt volumes when b said words to the effect, "i live with a woman or she lives with me, she doesn't live with other people."

 

[cheap gin]

Yeah, I got that too...seemed strange as I am reading through WOMEN now and Chinaski's attitude is "you can take my women, okay, but take my car and I might murder you."

So Hank is really the opposite of HANK sometimes...not really surprising. I guess we all want to be someone else sometimes, even if it is really only ourselves.

And why is anyone surprised about the slapping scene? I just watched the DVD with the speacial featurette...the slow motion replay of the scene right before Hank lashes out is truly insightful...check out the look that crosses his face the instant before. Anyone ever spending much time in such situations could just see it coming...that slow-mo I've seen before, many times.

 

[roni]

There have been said a lot of true things on the matter already.

Still I would like to add to this by stressing, that we don't know the whole happening: When you watch it carefully you see, that even at the very start he seems to refer to something that musta been subject to discussion before the cam was rolling or the cutter decided to start. He is talking with looks towards her (e.g. right after he says "so they do it") and I'm pretty sure, what we see is not a "sudden" explosion of violence, but the result of a longer going argument. Also she is mocking at him, laughing about him, provoking. Yes, this doesn't excuse beatings, but still gives a totally different evaluation of the situation.

But nevertheless I'd prefer they dropped this episode - not to hide his 'dark side' or anything. But I know many people, not Bukowski-Fans, who I recommended to watch the Schroeder-Tapes to get a good glimpse about Buk for a start - and ALL of them (after watching it) refer to this episode FIRST!

It is like all the other 4 hours never existed! Nobody has ever tried to talk to me about his moving readings of "Tragedy of the leaves" or "For Jane" or when he talks about style and decency or when he's showing where he lived all his life - all come up with this scene! It spoils Bukowski. That's my point. It deflects from the main things. (only non-fans that is of course.)

 

[mjp]

I think in general it's the more sensational aspects of Bukowski that a lot of people first latch on to. If they hang in there long enough they can pick up the nuances and soul, but on the surface, a lot of people only see a drunk womanizer.

Of course that is the image that he (and to a lesser extent, his publishers) played up during his lifetime, so it isn't surprising that a lot of people come to his work knowing only the broad strokes of his personality or life.

 

[HenryChinaski]

But nevertheless I'd prefer they dropped this episode - not to hide his 'dark side' or anything. But I know many people, not Bukowski-Fans, who I recommended to watch the Schroeder-Tapes to get a good glimpse about Buk for a start - and ALL of them (after watching it) refer to this episode FIRST!

It is like all the other 4 hours never existed! Nobody has ever tried to talk to me about his moving readings of "Tragedy of the leaves" or "For Jane" or when he talks about style and decency or when he's showing where he lived all his life - all come up with this scene! It spoils Bukowski. That's my point. It deflects from the main things. (only non-fans that is of course.)

i for one, am glad they kept it in there. you have to take the good with the bad.

IT DOESNT SPOIL A GODDAMN THING. people either love him or hate him. there is no in-between.

DO YOU THINK HE GAVE A FUCK WHAT PEOPLE THOUGHT OF HIM?
well yes to a certain extent...but I wont be the first to say that Bukowski lived by his own philosophy.

"your life is your life. know it well..."

 

[poptop]

Instant Replay

And how does anyone know that the same force of passion that led Bukowski to kick Linda so brutally off the sofa isn't the same force of passion harnessed behind his poems? I believe it is, and this is why that scene deserves to be left in.

I also feel that his rage has everything to do with the repeated, brutal beatings he suffered under his sadistic father. That naked force of rage is revealed in this shocking kicking episode, and it's important that viewers see that naked force unglamorized.

If Bukowski and Linda got over it, the viewers should be able to likewise. Those who see only the brutality of this episode and nothing else in the entire 4 hours, are probably the ones who will never deal with their own rage, sock their wives in the kisser and never draw a connection between the two.

That same force of rage can also heighten the love between a man and a woman if it's transformed. It was. They got through it. They married. Their love ended on a high note, not in spite of this incident, but probably because of it. It made her stronger, and him more aware of his irrational anger.

I'm glad the scene was left in, and if other's cannot understand it within the context of his triumphant life as a whole"”that's their problem, because a lot of people can. At the end of his life, what you see is a man who treated his wife with love, respect and deference. He found out that not all women are whores.

"”Poptop.

 

[the only good poet]

At the end of his life, what you see is a man who treated his wife with love, respect and deference. He found out that not all women are whores.

just so. "Confession," from EARTH POEMS, is tremedously touching, sad, with just a hint of irony - "it's not my death that bothers me/it's my wife..."

 

[HenryChinaski]

Okay, Linda even said that she didn't want the public to get the wrong impression of their relationship. She also stated that that was the only time anything like that ever happened. She even went as far as to tell us that Hank had no recollection of it the next morning.

As poptop previously stated, Hank and Linda got over it. Why can't the rest of you get over it as well?

I also agree with you in saying that that episode had a lot to do with a troubling childhood...and as Buk stated, 'just being pushed.'

 

[Short Bus]

Can't seem to find any refernces to beatings in any of my Buddhist texts
other than
We all want to be happy
we all suffer
We all deserve not to suffer
that which reduces suffering may be a good path to follow
Seems like forgiveness and turning the other cheek ruled the day.
Hey hold on I've read that idea somewhere else too.
People fuck up people forgive
Once is a mistake twice is a pattern

 

[skbruce]

OK, I haven't been around for a while, but where the hell is Olaf when you need him?:) I can't believe this thread: "Let's forgive and forget", "the rage that led to Hank's violence fueled the beauty that became his and Linda's love", "Linda was drinking too", on and on and on. Sure, Buk's rage can be attributed to his father, but come on; don't give me these bullshit excuses about his outburst with Linda being part of something bigger, more meaningful. Read the biographies! When Buk got drunk he could be a real son-of-a-bitch. Look at some of the violent fights with Linda King, such as the time he broke her nose or the altercation at Ferlinghetti's house or the many altercations at Linda King's house or Cherkovski's strange run-ins with Buk when he was plastered, etc. He wasn't the damn saint you're canonizing here. He could be violent and was violent many times.

Yeah, Buk mellowed with age and wrote some damn fine poetry about it. That's all well and good. But that doesn't excuse everything in his life prior to that. The slapping scene is what is, pretty revolting. And Buk was what he was, flawed. I think what's being missed here is the fact that those flaws gave Buk a perspective in his writing a lot of people can relate to at different times. But not all his flaws were as accessible as others. In fact, some reared their head in brutal ways, such as the story "The Fiend". I guess the point here is take Buk for what he is, what he was, and find what you value there, but don't try to sanitize him into some kind of misunderstood David Copperfield.

 

[HenryChinaski]

That isnt even really the wrost thing I've heard of Buk doing.

Do you guys recall the story in Erections when he goes to Janes favorite bar, finds her there, says "I've tried to make a woman out of you but you're nothing but a goddamn whore!" and then backhands her off her bar stool?

In my opinion, that's way worse. I'm pretty sure that happened as well. One can never be sure because we all know Buk liked to spice up his work with fiction, but i dunno.

 

[Bukfan]

skbruce raises some valid points. Buk was often violent when he was drunk. And you can't blame everything on a bad childhood...

 

[the only good poet]

he does indeed. however, i think we can safely blame buk's behaviour on a deep insecurity, which no doubt stemmed from his early traumas surrounding his childhood and adolescence. i think it takes a bit of insight to get beyond the sterile positions of acquiescence or blame. for me, it's not about excusing.

 

[blackberry wild]

Of course he wasn't perfect or flawed, that's not a surprise to anyone here. It doesn't have anything to do with making excuses for him, or anyone. If people need to look at life in black and white terms to make everything fit into a neat little, understandable, comfortable box, then they will never get bukowski or anything else. It does make it easier, though, for them to not have to dig into and really look at things. That, would take too much effort. Everyone has a dark side and the people who are quick to judge others are deflecting away from their own unacknowledged ugliness. Bukowski had something of value and beauty to offer. How many people can say that for themselves?

 

[bongobill]

not me
i'm a worthless
sack
of poop

*slap
*shove
*kick

 

[HenryChinaski]

i picture buk in the afterlife, watching us talk about such things.

then I think of the life of the king

"rolled cigarette dangling, I scratch my belly in the sun."

 

[Ninjerk]

ok i just read ALL the responses and all i have to say is that some of you are weak in the worst way... you will invite violence against women into your homes if it is in word, but in seeing it you are sickened...

you are the kind of people who dont want to know where their food comes from but would love a meal of fois gras without even thinking.

i ask you all to reconsider your black and white veiw of life.

Okay, I'm not going to try to fan a flamewar up, but I am going to defend myself since at least part of this was derived from my post. Ever see the movie Collateral? It's one of the few movies with Tom Cruise in it that I absolutely love. This is my favorite part of the movie (I'm almost surprised imdb had it!):

Vincent (Tom Cruise): Max, six billion people on the planet, you're getting bent out of shape cause of one fat guy.
Max (Jamie Foxx): Well, who was he?
Vincent: What do you care? Have you ever heard of Rwanda?
Max: Yes, I know Rwanda.
Vincent: Well, tens of thousands killed before sundown. Nobody's killed people that fast since Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Did you bat an eye, Max?
Max: What?
Vincent: Did you join Amnesty International, Oxfam, Save the Whales, Greenpeace, or something? No. I off one fat Angelino and you throw a hissy fit.
Max: Man, I don't know any Rwandans.
Vincent: You don't know the guy in the trunk, either.

 

[Paul Sempschi]

The whole thing was abuse but it was nothing 'traumatic'. I actually founded it comically pathetic; here's a bloated old man clumsily trying to kick her (really not kicking her that hard = feeble) and bitching that he's going to sick his Jewish lawyer on her, it's just over the top farce. Sure he meant it, sure he was being stupid but this is not Ike Turner or Miles Davis.

 

[Father Luke]

have you people who are "shocked" ever read any of this mans work? maybe you should be reading a safer writer... or watching capote.

I rarely write this.

LOL

Fucking nail on the head.

 

[MilDot]

Hank always wrote what most people were thinking, but were scared to say.
Have you ever had a woman cheat on you? Esp. openly?
He just did what most of us would want to do, but wouldn't due to the morals we have and the social unacceptability of domestic violence in these times.
I have never and will never hit a woman. I have and will beat a mans ass whom I see do it.
That said, Why is it our grandparents generation, when domestic violence was a commonly unreported, and a almost socially acceptable practice, had such a low divorce rate? Did the morality of women change that drastically? Were women less likely to cheat given the consequences? Did cheating men go unchecked due to their wives fear? Or is it completely unrelated?

 

[hank solo]

I have to disagree with you there. From what you say elsewhere you're going through a divorce and that's obviously a sign that some proverbial 'shit' has 'happened', but I don't think you have Bukowski's behaviour in this scene properly pegged.

It is well documented that Bukowski could quite suddenly become a very different person after he had consumed a large amount of alcohol. Gerald Locklin calls it his 'doppelgänger' - ie. he still looks like Bukowski but acts very differently. Perhaps its his 'evil twin'.

Anyway, if you read more about Bukowski's childhood, perhaps from his own novel 'Ham On Rye' you'll understand how Bukowski felt about domestic violence. In short, he wasn't one to support it at all.

I'm a big fan of Bukowski's writing. But his behaviour in that scene is not representative of the man who created the work I admire. Its really the behaviour of a nasty jealous drunk. Bukowski was just not a good mixer at this point of his life - he was about 63. I'd say it safe to say he'd been this way since the early sixties, probably really since he had started to write so much after his hospitalisation in the 50s. When he was in a relationship he was in danger of becoming very possessive and jealous. And when Bukowski (in the scene) talks about Linda going with or living with other people, I don't believe he means that she was cheating on him. But even if she had cheated on him, a physical attack is not what I would view as acceptable consequences.

Relationships are complicated. And of course this scene would not be the last argument that he had with Linda, but she does say that he never did anything like that again. They married a few years after that was filmed and most people, Bukowski included, acknowledge that Linda very likely added a few years to his life by advocating a more healthy diet including a more sensible drinking schedule (he still drank a lot, but not as much so called strong liquor).

Glad you've enjoyed the Bukowski you've read so far. But please, read more before you let these opinions set hard.

 

[MilDot]

Good points Hank solo. I don't think my situation would have any bearing on this though.
I do not know much about Bukowski, but do know people, esp. in situations like this. I did not get the impression that it was the first time something of that nature had happened between them. I am not offended, but I do not condone it either. I would not judge the man by this one scene. I really don't see what it has to do with his writing, one way or the other.

 

[ROC]

I really don't see what it has to do with his writing, one way or the other.

That's spot on.

 

[hank solo]

Hi Mildot.

Then I read to much between the lines in your posts, I apologise. I'll explain my poor logic.

I don't think my situation would have any bearing on this though.

Okay, sorry. I appear to have inferred from your comment about your domestic situation that you might have an 'axe to grind' against womanhood. That was a big leap, I know, and out of context.

I really don't see what it has to do with his writing, one way or the other.

I agree with that. Again, I misunderstood you. When you said that he "always wrote what most people were thinking, but were scared to say" followed by "He just did what most of us would want to do, but wouldn't due to the morals we have and the social unacceptability of domestic violence in these times" it appeared to me that you were linking his behaviour in the scene in question with his writing.

I am not offended, but I do not condone it either. I would not judge the man by this one scene.

Fair play then. Sorry if I came across as being preachy.

 

[MilDot]

Hi Mildot.
Okay, sorry. I appear to have inferred from your comment about your domestic situation that you might have an 'axe to grind' against womanhood. That was a big leap, I know, and out of context.

No, God no! I love women. Really. If I have any axe to grind at all it is against one particular woman for being a bad mother, but no hard feelings about anything done to me. (Sorry that was off topic, but just wanted to clarify...)
I have no hard feelings against women at all, and I am sure any misunderstanding was my fault for not being entirely clear in my post. I sincerely apologize if anyone found my post offensive. That was not my intent.

And thanks for the excellent response Hank solo.

 

[EuropeYankee]

men hit women. weak men, that are powerless to take out their anger against other men. women hit men. they become uncontrollable and think they can claw or scratch or slap. a man doesn't need to hit a woman...

yeah well... i have a story, where a was totally beaten up from a ex-girlfriend, i only wanted to talk about ...what will come now, after our seperation ...and she screamed to me, Fucking Vino!Son of a Bitch ! Dirty Cheater... and she started to beat the "living shit" outta my face... next day i had a crooked nose and 2 black eyes... well i didn't hurt her, anyways if i did,... tell (as a man) a judge it was just a defensive stance... it's unbelievable, i know.


btt: i was too shocked about that Bukowski scene...i always kn ew he was mad, but that was something i've never ever expected. in Born into this there is a picture of him with a woman with 2 black eyes (brown haired)...pretty at the beginning..is THIS linda King?

 

[bospress.net]

men hit women. weak men, that are powerless to take out their anger against other men. women hit men. they become uncontrollable and think they can claw or scratch or slap. a man doesn't need to hit a woman...

yeah well... i have a story, where a was totally beaten up from a ex-girlfriend, i only wanted to talk about ...what will come now, after our seperation ...and she screamed to me, Fucking Vino!Son of a Bitch ! Dirty Cheater... and she started to beat the "living shit" outta my face... next day i had a crooked nose and 2 black eyes... well i didn't hurt her, anyways if i did,... tell (as a man) a judge it was just a defensive stance... it's unbelievable, i know.


btt: i was too shocked about that Bukowski scene...i always kn ew he was mad, but that was something i've never ever expected. in Born into this there is a picture of him with a woman with 2 black eyes (brown haired)...pretty at the beginning..is THIS linda King?[/QUOTE]

Hi,
That was Linda Lee Bukowski on the couch, NOT Linda King.

I love watching COPS when they pull up on a domestic and it is a woman who slaps the man. Many times it is the woman that hits and the man does not hit back. It is always funny to see the look of complete shock as they are handcuffed and taken away. For some reason, some people think that a woman assaulting a man is completely fine if she is upset, while we all know that a man assaulting a woman is not ok.

I know that these are a minority and that most women know that they cannot hit, but it is interesting to see. I also know that more men abuse women than the other way around and that it can be far more serious than a little slap. Just so the ladies know that I'm not a pig....

Bill