thanks bill.that puts my theories to the dogs .thanks again man
Was he really a Nazi?
- Thread starter Charlie
- Start date
of course he wasn't
well,he actually never cared about politics.He even wrote a poem against 'engag?s' writers wasting their talent with social problems.
He attended nazi boys at college,that's true:but that was just because he could get free beer at their meetings.I think he did write a short novel about those early times at college...
well,he actually never cared about politics.He even wrote a poem against 'engag?s' writers wasting their talent with social problems.
He attended nazi boys at college,that's true:but that was just because he could get free beer at their meetings.I think he did write a short novel about those early times at college...
nazis etc
Being a nazi and anti semitic are two different issues. The most actively virulent element of that party was it's murderousnous to Jewish people which has become somewhat diluted in modern times to murderousness to all non "aryans."
You can hate Jews without being a nazi but I don't see how you can be a nazi without hating Jews, since that is a defining trait of that "party".
All the posts i've seen here on this issue defend bukowski from this association...just a boyish prank etc. And that well may have been the case. But, within our pranks, and other gestures we feel we don't have to take responsibility for because they are after all just "pranks", lie real impulses and feelings.
I haven't studied bukowski's politics, and his material suggests he's largely apolitical. I would say from this "evidence", assuming it is accurate and serves as an sort of personality biopsy, that bukowski wasn't fond of Jews.
Being one myself, I have to say that if bukowski thought i'd be better off in a gas chamber, or maybe just on a different planet then him, it wouldn't effect my sense of his writing abilities, which are what they are regardless of his sensibilities or delusions, but I might remind him about some "incompetent" Jewish writers like Saul Bellow or Elias Canetti, to name a couple of Nobel Laureates, next time he's on his way to a nazi dance for a couple free beers, or whatever classy activity he's got in mind.
Being a nazi and anti semitic are two different issues. The most actively virulent element of that party was it's murderousnous to Jewish people which has become somewhat diluted in modern times to murderousness to all non "aryans."
You can hate Jews without being a nazi but I don't see how you can be a nazi without hating Jews, since that is a defining trait of that "party".
All the posts i've seen here on this issue defend bukowski from this association...just a boyish prank etc. And that well may have been the case. But, within our pranks, and other gestures we feel we don't have to take responsibility for because they are after all just "pranks", lie real impulses and feelings.
I haven't studied bukowski's politics, and his material suggests he's largely apolitical. I would say from this "evidence", assuming it is accurate and serves as an sort of personality biopsy, that bukowski wasn't fond of Jews.
Being one myself, I have to say that if bukowski thought i'd be better off in a gas chamber, or maybe just on a different planet then him, it wouldn't effect my sense of his writing abilities, which are what they are regardless of his sensibilities or delusions, but I might remind him about some "incompetent" Jewish writers like Saul Bellow or Elias Canetti, to name a couple of Nobel Laureates, next time he's on his way to a nazi dance for a couple free beers, or whatever classy activity he's got in mind.
mjp
Founding member
Well, you might be on to something there, I think Bukowski had many prejudices, most of which were rolled up in his general distaste for anyone other than himself. ;)
But I think the whole nazi thing was blown out of proportion - partly by his own writing - but there's a story early in South Of No North (if I'm remembering correctly) where he makes it pretty clear that he was never a member of the nazi party, never believed in their tenets.
But really, he had bad things to say about almost everyone, so what can you draw from that? He was a fucked up, disagreeable guy much of the time, no doubt about that.
But I think the whole nazi thing was blown out of proportion - partly by his own writing - but there's a story early in South Of No North (if I'm remembering correctly) where he makes it pretty clear that he was never a member of the nazi party, never believed in their tenets.
But really, he had bad things to say about almost everyone, so what can you draw from that? He was a fucked up, disagreeable guy much of the time, no doubt about that.
dave11 said:
Can a 1/8th Jew be considered a Jew? I think I heard that the nazis locked up anyone up to 1/64th of the blood (a WWII expert could clarify). Be that as it is, and being a 1/8th, I feel a certain kinship to the "tribe' so to speak [many persons call themselves ?Cherokee? who are 1/16th]; and, put forth that many of Buk?s buddies were Jews (stated elsewhere in this forum). Also, in the famous kicking scene with his wife (to-be) Linda, he said something to the effect that he was going to get his "Jewish" lawyer: ?I can move your ass out of here, so bright and so fast, with a Jewish attorney.? If that doesn't speak of an affection for the Jewish race in general, it at least shows how he felt there was an exceeding judiciary competence displayed by his Hebrew legal staff; so I have problem with your ?bukowski wasn't fond of Jews? statement. He seemed to take Jews, Blacks, Italians, Germans, women, parking attendants, dogs, cats, etc. on an individual basis. Someone who sliced the words as carefully as he did, would not be into generalization (except where it served an artistic end).
SD
First newbie statement so please bare with me but I'm sure I read a short story by Henry that was about Hitler and from what I can remember (lost the book ages ago and have yet to be able to find a replacement)it was quite detremental.
We havn't defined Nazi.
Is it one sympathic to all Hitler's programs or just the economic or just the genetic. Is using HItler as the base correct?
Can one be a left leaning Nazi?
Was Buk a prson who agreed the over man goal was worthy but the anti Semitic crap is insane?
Rogets:NAZI
A member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, founded in Germany in 1919 and brought to power in 1933 under Adolf Hitler.
often nazi An adherent or advocate of policies characteristic of Nazism; a fascist.
Is it one sympathic to all Hitler's programs or just the economic or just the genetic. Is using HItler as the base correct?
Can one be a left leaning Nazi?
Was Buk a prson who agreed the over man goal was worthy but the anti Semitic crap is insane?
Rogets:NAZI
A member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, founded in Germany in 1919 and brought to power in 1933 under Adolf Hitler.
often nazi An adherent or advocate of policies characteristic of Nazism; a fascist.
definitions
"We" haven't defined dogshit yet either. What sort of definition would you like? Let's see: sociopathic murderous sadists, fanatically adhering to bizarre dogma, goosestepping around in freakish uniforms to a tune called by a mega-serial killer with a penchant for grandiose architecture.
Really the whole notion of defining that sort of thing is ludicrous to me. I don't go around with a chip on my shoulder about the past, I'm just aware of who my enemies are. Was bukowski a nazi...frankly I doubt it...was he a jew hater...probably...and to site an example of bukowski saying that if he needs to hurt someone legally he'll get his jewish mouthpiece, to use that as an example of a "pro-jewish" remark, shows your utter ignorance of the way its used.
I want some watermelon, i think i'll call some nigger. I want to do something legally repugnant, kikes are great with money, those nickle noses, i'll get my jew kike lawyer.
But this is "industrial prejudice"..common stuff...old school, archie bunker stereotypes. Since most of bukowskis crap was published by firms that have "kikes" as ceos, and that may well mean a lot of legal work done for him, maybe even keeping his delirious sloppy ass out of jail, may well have been done by "kikes" he can go around saying whatever he wants, and when sued for liable or slander, can go find a "Jew lawyer" to straighten out the situation.
and as a corollary...hating jews doesn't mean you can't be good friends with some on an individual basis. It's in the nature of the human race's discomfort with the insane programmed ideas it blindly accepts. And stereotypes are usually accurate in general ways, thats why they are streotypes. If I have a vocabulary of 100 words, am "black", live in a ghetto apartment complex, carry a gun, sell dope, and every sentence out of my mouth is like..."Ahhh beees goin to dee crib .......know wha ahhhh mean? then ahhh be seein mahhh awhnty....mufuhhh.....well there is a way to sterotype this sort of thing...likewisw with certain jews who definately act like "jew lawyers"
people are trained certain ways and then act those ways...ahhh fuck it...
For the record, being 1/8 a jew or a .001% jew doesn't get it. If your mother isn't a jew, and some people say both parents have to be many generations back, you are not a jew.
And you should be happy about that, as we are the most hated people on earth, bar none. After all, I'm told we singlehandedly own every bank, the federal reserve, the treasury, the entire media complex, every apartment and condo onearth etc. and we exist to exploit the non-jew. After all, that's what hitler said so it's gotta be right.
What i like is that the "non jew" whatever the hell that is, that goes around "worshipping " that poor dumb schmuck hanging on a cross..ARE WORSHIPPING A JEW!!!!!!!!!! fuckin morons
bukowski was a decent writer, and...his "legend" did for him what Van Gogh's ear did for him...put him on the map.
People admire bukowski, first and foremost, because it's fashionable, or used to be, in the sense that decadence, or what is perceived as such...self destruction, always gets some attention. His litereary gifts, such as they are, come second. If he wasn't a notorius self destructive capering drunk, most of his audience wouldn't have been intrigued enough to check him out. If you want to read a great writer read malcolm lowrey or dostoyevsky...then go back and look at your hero.
"We" haven't defined dogshit yet either. What sort of definition would you like? Let's see: sociopathic murderous sadists, fanatically adhering to bizarre dogma, goosestepping around in freakish uniforms to a tune called by a mega-serial killer with a penchant for grandiose architecture.
Really the whole notion of defining that sort of thing is ludicrous to me. I don't go around with a chip on my shoulder about the past, I'm just aware of who my enemies are. Was bukowski a nazi...frankly I doubt it...was he a jew hater...probably...and to site an example of bukowski saying that if he needs to hurt someone legally he'll get his jewish mouthpiece, to use that as an example of a "pro-jewish" remark, shows your utter ignorance of the way its used.
I want some watermelon, i think i'll call some nigger. I want to do something legally repugnant, kikes are great with money, those nickle noses, i'll get my jew kike lawyer.
But this is "industrial prejudice"..common stuff...old school, archie bunker stereotypes. Since most of bukowskis crap was published by firms that have "kikes" as ceos, and that may well mean a lot of legal work done for him, maybe even keeping his delirious sloppy ass out of jail, may well have been done by "kikes" he can go around saying whatever he wants, and when sued for liable or slander, can go find a "Jew lawyer" to straighten out the situation.
and as a corollary...hating jews doesn't mean you can't be good friends with some on an individual basis. It's in the nature of the human race's discomfort with the insane programmed ideas it blindly accepts. And stereotypes are usually accurate in general ways, thats why they are streotypes. If I have a vocabulary of 100 words, am "black", live in a ghetto apartment complex, carry a gun, sell dope, and every sentence out of my mouth is like..."Ahhh beees goin to dee crib .......know wha ahhhh mean? then ahhh be seein mahhh awhnty....mufuhhh.....well there is a way to sterotype this sort of thing...likewisw with certain jews who definately act like "jew lawyers"
people are trained certain ways and then act those ways...ahhh fuck it...
For the record, being 1/8 a jew or a .001% jew doesn't get it. If your mother isn't a jew, and some people say both parents have to be many generations back, you are not a jew.
And you should be happy about that, as we are the most hated people on earth, bar none. After all, I'm told we singlehandedly own every bank, the federal reserve, the treasury, the entire media complex, every apartment and condo onearth etc. and we exist to exploit the non-jew. After all, that's what hitler said so it's gotta be right.
What i like is that the "non jew" whatever the hell that is, that goes around "worshipping " that poor dumb schmuck hanging on a cross..ARE WORSHIPPING A JEW!!!!!!!!!! fuckin morons
bukowski was a decent writer, and...his "legend" did for him what Van Gogh's ear did for him...put him on the map.
People admire bukowski, first and foremost, because it's fashionable, or used to be, in the sense that decadence, or what is perceived as such...self destruction, always gets some attention. His litereary gifts, such as they are, come second. If he wasn't a notorius self destructive capering drunk, most of his audience wouldn't have been intrigued enough to check him out. If you want to read a great writer read malcolm lowrey or dostoyevsky...then go back and look at your hero.
dave11 said:
I can't argue with most of your post, it just makes sense.
but to say that the people here haven't read Lowry (no "e" by the way) or Dostoyevsky is ignorant. Under the Volcano is my favourite book, I've read Crime and Punishment twice. I've read Ulysses twice, and parts of it several times. I've read every word Samuel Beckett dragged out of his brain. I've slogged through Dante's Inferno, The Odyssey and The Illiad. And I'm pretty sure that 90 % of the people here are better read than I am.
so don't fight ignorance with ignorance.
in peace and against ignorance....
Steve.
Brother Schenker
Founding member
It's now time to ask the root question:
If evidence somehow turned up "proving" Buk was a nazi, would you enjoy his books any less? What about being a fag? Anti-Black? Anti-Mexican? A pedophile? A serial killer? A baby killer? A puppy killer? A republican? A secret admirer of Jerry Falwell or Geraldo Rivera? A supporter of the war against drug users?
I might be puzzled or amused or even embarrassed for him, but it wouldn't put me off his books.
Humans can't control what impells or urges them from within. We can't control our desires and can't choose what we find attractive. We can't pick our desires or repulsions. We might be able to fake acceptable behavior in public...put on a show for the parole board or the job or just anytime we're outside of 4 walls, but those unacceptable, unfashionable or presently unpopular desires and attractions and impulses will keep on burning.
Peace to all of you good people. Peace, and rainbows, and cotton candy, and tiny yellow buttercups & purple forget-me-nots.
If evidence somehow turned up "proving" Buk was a nazi, would you enjoy his books any less? What about being a fag? Anti-Black? Anti-Mexican? A pedophile? A serial killer? A baby killer? A puppy killer? A republican? A secret admirer of Jerry Falwell or Geraldo Rivera? A supporter of the war against drug users?
I might be puzzled or amused or even embarrassed for him, but it wouldn't put me off his books.
Humans can't control what impells or urges them from within. We can't control our desires and can't choose what we find attractive. We can't pick our desires or repulsions. We might be able to fake acceptable behavior in public...put on a show for the parole board or the job or just anytime we're outside of 4 walls, but those unacceptable, unfashionable or presently unpopular desires and attractions and impulses will keep on burning.
Peace to all of you good people. Peace, and rainbows, and cotton candy, and tiny yellow buttercups & purple forget-me-nots.
right, as posted in another thread, the seperation of art and the artist.Brother Schenker said:
dave11 said:
What I am wondering is this: Did you write this post to stir up a controversy around here? Did you do it to feed on much needed attention? Or are you simply a tad simple?
Well, in case you did it for attention, I shall adhere. I shall comply, and I shall do so since I too am a sucker for attention.
You claim you cannot define a nazi. Yes, you can most certainly label someone nazi. Those sympathetic to Mein Kampf and the policies of NSDAP (Die Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) are a nazi. Easy.
Hating jews makes you anti-semittic, not a nazi. And for the record, hating muslims also makes you anti-senittic. Actually, hating anyone aboriginal from the middle east/palestine/israel area makes you an anti-semittic. (Thus you can hate christians and atheists and rightfull be called anti-semittic if they happen to come from or live in Palestine or Israel.)
Also, you claim the nazis had silly uniforms. You can say alot about the nazis, but their uniforms kick ass. I mean, they had black uniform hats with a grinning SKULL on it and below, written in gothic text, the words 'Gott mit uns' (God is with us). You don't get more hardcore than that.
Bukowski was no jew hater. Saying one place (which you oddly enough cannot even document) that you put on your 'jewish mouthpiece' to legally hurt someone does not make you a jew hater. It is a commonly used expression since it was extremely difficult to prosecute jews after wwII as everyone was deathly afraid of being labelled a nazi, or anti-semittic.
You come here, to Bukowski.net, a fan site dedicated to the genius of Bukowski and start off with
. Then you start off rambling on about how people stereotype other people and that the only reason people read Bukowski is due to fashion. Have you read Bukowski? And if you have, then are you saying you did so just because it is the fashionable thing to do? Thus labelling yourself a tool?
Further: A non jew is someone not jewish. Why is that so hard to grasp?
You also call every single christian man around a fucking moron since they worship a jew and thus must be jewish themselves. This is just amateurish, at best. Read the new testament before you say such things. Using that logic all christians should hate jews since the jews killed Jesus then, right? Of course not.
You claim jews are the most hated people on earth. No, they're not. Muslims are way more stigmatized than you guys. But I have to admit, that whole Israel thing you guys got going kinda pisses me off. Isrealic jews treat muslims much the same way nazis treated jews. Ironic? You be the judge.
Okay, so being 1/8th of a jew does not make you a jew. Why are you rambling on about this here on Bukowski.net? What on earth does this have anything to do with whether or not buk was a nazi? Or are you just boasting your own heritage?
But, I have to say that your fine wording of 'Bukowski's crap' followed by 'Bukowski was a decent writer' takes the cake.
Bukowski was a great writer of great literature. He was not a nazi, he was not a racist, he was an alcoholic, he was heterophilic and he died in 1994. These are the facts, no more as I see it.
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
dave11 said:
Some truth here, as far as it goes, in that the lowlife persona is what originally attracts most readers, but I think the quality of the writing is what keeps them coming back for more. Personally I greatly admire the work, but have mixed feelings about the self-destructive man behind it. But the same could be said for many writers, painters, musicians.
David
mjp said:
Yes you're referring to the short story 'Politics'.
Here's Bukowski, with his German name and heritage, writing in the early 70s about something that he did in the late 30s, when he was about 18/19.
At L.A. City College just before World War II, I posed as a Nazi. I hardly knew Hitler from Hercules and cared less. It was just that sitting in class and hearing all the patriots preach how we should go over and do the beast in, I grew bored. I decided to become the opposition. I didn't even bother to read up on Adolf, I simply spouted anything that I felt was evil or maniacal.
However, I really didn't have any political beliefs. It was a way of floating free.
However, I really didn't have any political beliefs. It was a way of floating free.
[...]
I didn't care about the Communist menace or the Nazi menace. I wanted to get drunk, I wanted to fuck, I wanted a good meal, I wanted to sing over a glass of beer in a dirty bar and smoke a cigar. I wasn't aware. I was a dupe, a tool.
I can't say whether Bukowski definitely was or wasn't sympathetic to the Nazi 'cause' - I can only form an opinion based on what I have read in his books and heard him say in interviews. I think much of what he wrote and said is very revealing while anyone else's testamony is circumstantial at best.
For example, I haven't read Ben Pleasant's book Visceral Bukowski, but a few years ago I did read his article WHEN BUKOWSKI WAS A NAZI on the Hollywood Investigator site. I wasn't convinced.
It seems to me that in the 70s (and today) when the realities of the holocaust were common knowledge, it was very easy to say that Bukowski was an idiot for even posing as a Nazi. Would it be so easy if it was 1939 and you were of German decent? Would you feel ostracised by the anti-German 'propaganda'? Bukowski always thought of himself as being different, not belonging, an outsider, and while this is not so unusual for a teenager today I get the impression that before the late 40s / early 50s the experience of being a teenager was quite different, with people generally switching from childhood to adulthood without being what we might call 'a teenager'. It used to be that 'young adults' could almost instinctively follow the route their parents had, almost without exception, with jobs for life and in many parts of the world, conscription to military service. History seems to suggest that WWII was the main catalyst for the change in teenage expectations and experiences and this seems to fit with Bukowski too. Much of his character was nurtured in the days before the civil rights movements, before rock and roll, before the massive changes in world politics and before anyone knew what the third reich thought the final solution was.
I think I need a beer before I meander any further... Maybe I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about either...
Was Bukowski a Nazi sympathiser? I doubt it. Did he have prejudices? Probably.
Was he sometimes a disagreeable asshole? Obviously.
"dogshit" Defined
You bring up a few items in your indignant rant, and I?d like to address them individually (if I may).
Here, you are questioning Jimmy Snerp's request for a clarification of terms, which is a quite reasonable request on her part. I would have to say that all she might be pointing out is that many Germans that joined the party early on, did so because of the deplorable state the German economy was in during the post WWI era, not because of a liking for their racist policies and ideology. By the time they were collectively under the stranglehold of murderous dogs, it was too late to put the genie back in the bottle and they sailed into hell with everyone else. Are you advocating hating all Germans forever because of this misstep (as big as it was)?
If you have some evidence for this statement, please enlighten us. I have looked with a critical eye at most of his writings and cannot find said evidence (and, like hank solo, find Ben Pleasant?s account to be less than convincing?filled as it is with innuendo and conjecture; but, next time I see his daughter?s mother, FrancEyE, I?ll ask her what her thoughts are on the matter). My hunting for his true sentiments include searching his personal correspondence where he made most of his inner, private feelings quite plain. So you must have done better scholarship than I, and I?m most intrigued to hear your sources for the accusations.
You?re playing a little fast and loose with the personal and racial epithets here, but I must call you on your deplorable, unskilled and naive attempt at logic. I have no idea what you do for a living; I just hope it has nothing to do with computers, mathematics or the legal profession?you do show a unschooled command of what one might call the ?parallel metaphor.? Like many who argue for a living on TV, you commit the fallacy of the rampant ?non sequitur.? To use a proper example of African-Americans as a parallel; you might employ a comparison of winning a basketball game with a superior player of such exhibited skills (not your ?watermelon? remark). And, as such, anyone who doesn?t have their head up their ass, must agree that, given the socio-economic, educational and cultural construction of the U. S. Of A., there is a certain domination in certain professions that lend themselves to a given ethnic preponderance. So, please, as a part-Jew (to be dealt with later), Nordic logician who is in the computer business, you hurt my stereotypical logistical mind by falling so short of the mark (and I would expect more or better from a fellow Jew).
See the above; I think this has been dispelled and disbursed there, quite effectively. You are the one, I might add, that is throwing around the racial slurs; and I, for one, am quite offended by the gross insensitivity of your remarks and absurdity. Please don?t piss me off; you wouldn?t like the consequences (as the Hulk says).
Thank you for making my argument partly for me; albeit in your clumsy, offensive, racist and ineffectual way.
You can this shit to the hundreds of thousands that, having up to 1/64 of the blood in their veins, died in Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen, etc.; going to the gas chambers right along with those who were 100% bonafide Jews. You may not consider them Jews, but Hitler certainly did. Also, it depends on who your rabbinical authority is. I suppose you don?t consider that Sammy Davis Jr., was a jew, either? I rest my case.
You just can?t get off the stereotyping, can you? Someone would begin to believe you might have a problem here.
Christ, one of the most successful rabbis ever; yes, we agree.
Others have answered this most adequately, so I won?t add much; other than to say that: you may read Buk because of fashion, but don?t be such a generalization-ist as to assume everyone arrived here out of a sharing of your concomitant superficial impulses. There are some here who actually are students of the word and literature in these cyber-environs, and have much more understanding of such matters than, it seems, you exhibit. Lowry or Dostoevsky, not withstanding, Buk has a depth of understanding about humanity and a flair for the language that, given sufficient time and contemplation by the academics (many with head presently inserted in posteriors), may well be recognized as the 20th century?s foremost author?boozing and such, forgotten in the mists of time.
SD
You bring up a few items in your indignant rant, and I?d like to address them individually (if I may).
dave11 said:
Here, you are questioning Jimmy Snerp's request for a clarification of terms, which is a quite reasonable request on her part. I would have to say that all she might be pointing out is that many Germans that joined the party early on, did so because of the deplorable state the German economy was in during the post WWI era, not because of a liking for their racist policies and ideology. By the time they were collectively under the stranglehold of murderous dogs, it was too late to put the genie back in the bottle and they sailed into hell with everyone else. Are you advocating hating all Germans forever because of this misstep (as big as it was)?
dave11 said:
If you have some evidence for this statement, please enlighten us. I have looked with a critical eye at most of his writings and cannot find said evidence (and, like hank solo, find Ben Pleasant?s account to be less than convincing?filled as it is with innuendo and conjecture; but, next time I see his daughter?s mother, FrancEyE, I?ll ask her what her thoughts are on the matter). My hunting for his true sentiments include searching his personal correspondence where he made most of his inner, private feelings quite plain. So you must have done better scholarship than I, and I?m most intrigued to hear your sources for the accusations.
dave11 said:
You?re playing a little fast and loose with the personal and racial epithets here, but I must call you on your deplorable, unskilled and naive attempt at logic. I have no idea what you do for a living; I just hope it has nothing to do with computers, mathematics or the legal profession?you do show a unschooled command of what one might call the ?parallel metaphor.? Like many who argue for a living on TV, you commit the fallacy of the rampant ?non sequitur.? To use a proper example of African-Americans as a parallel; you might employ a comparison of winning a basketball game with a superior player of such exhibited skills (not your ?watermelon? remark). And, as such, anyone who doesn?t have their head up their ass, must agree that, given the socio-economic, educational and cultural construction of the U. S. Of A., there is a certain domination in certain professions that lend themselves to a given ethnic preponderance. So, please, as a part-Jew (to be dealt with later), Nordic logician who is in the computer business, you hurt my stereotypical logistical mind by falling so short of the mark (and I would expect more or better from a fellow Jew).
dave11 said:
See the above; I think this has been dispelled and disbursed there, quite effectively. You are the one, I might add, that is throwing around the racial slurs; and I, for one, am quite offended by the gross insensitivity of your remarks and absurdity. Please don?t piss me off; you wouldn?t like the consequences (as the Hulk says).
dave11 said:
Thank you for making my argument partly for me; albeit in your clumsy, offensive, racist and ineffectual way.
dave11 said:
You can this shit to the hundreds of thousands that, having up to 1/64 of the blood in their veins, died in Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen, etc.; going to the gas chambers right along with those who were 100% bonafide Jews. You may not consider them Jews, but Hitler certainly did. Also, it depends on who your rabbinical authority is. I suppose you don?t consider that Sammy Davis Jr., was a jew, either? I rest my case.
dave11 said:
You just can?t get off the stereotyping, can you? Someone would begin to believe you might have a problem here.
dave11 said:
Christ, one of the most successful rabbis ever; yes, we agree.
dave11 said:
Others have answered this most adequately, so I won?t add much; other than to say that: you may read Buk because of fashion, but don?t be such a generalization-ist as to assume everyone arrived here out of a sharing of your concomitant superficial impulses. There are some here who actually are students of the word and literature in these cyber-environs, and have much more understanding of such matters than, it seems, you exhibit. Lowry or Dostoevsky, not withstanding, Buk has a depth of understanding about humanity and a flair for the language that, given sufficient time and contemplation by the academics (many with head presently inserted in posteriors), may well be recognized as the 20th century?s foremost author?boozing and such, forgotten in the mists of time.
SD
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
What Jews were running the publishing firms that were publishing Bukowski? Are you talking about John Martin, Jon & Lou Webb, Marvin Malone? This, of course, is where it just gets silly. Maybe the CEO of harpercollins is a Jew (I don't know), but not only would Bukowski have done fine without Harper Collins help, but he died 8 years before they began doing business. It was the people above the published Buk. Not only are none of them Jews (to my knowledge), but none of them can be called CEOs. They were all damn fine publishers that did it for the love of the word. Most of them made very little money at it. The statement about ceos shows your ignoprance of the issues. Bukowski was not some media darling corporate sponsored poet that was the darling of Madison Avenue.dave11 said:
Jews, like everyone have their good and bad points, but those points are not based on their religion. It is based on some people being kind and some being assholes. I can point out the most evil jew and the most caring Jew. The same goes with any race, religion, nationality.
Somehow, I think that this is your real point here: To stir things up and then leave. Why else would you post on a Bukowski site and call his writing 'crap'? If you don't like him, then don't buy his books. That goes for all people, of all races, religions, etc....
Bill (1/4 Jew) Roberts
bospress.net said:
We 1/4s and 1/8s should get together and have a family reunion, semi-bar mitzvah, something of that order. Ya gotta love this site; the wildest concepts, conjectures and communications (no alliteration intended) get aired. THIS is what Buk probably intended (had he been prescient and seen the advent of the Net); that humanity should get to take a long look in the mirror, and see it?s collective bloodshot eyes and shaky hands. Great points, Mr. Bill.
And Bro Schen: I take back what I said about you being the bad boy (said in jest only, BTW); I want to say that you do get most articulate when you will, and I like what you said, also; (for what that?s worth).
SD
Has anybody mentioned that Buk says he admires Adolf Hitler in chapter 16 of the Bukowski Tapes: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5953823087198627125&q=bukowski+tapes ;)hank solo said:
mjp
Founding member
Oh man, just when the dust is settling...Erik said:
No one wakes up and thinks, "I believe I'll take part in some genocide today!" Societal realities shape everything and everyone. If you want to understand how "normal" Germans were caught up in nazism, read Hitler's Willing Executioners. It explains it as well as I've ever seen it explained. We all get caught up in things that don't look so great in retrospect. It's a human weakness. We're afraid, and it's easier to follow the crowd, even if the crowd is insane.
In Rwanda one million people were killed in one 100 day period. Serbia, Iraq - genocide didn't go away at the end of WWII, and Hitler didn't invent it. One hundred million dead African slaves, entire nations of native tribes erased from North America - as someone once said, "people are not good to each other"...
I suppose they never will be.
I don't ask them to be.
but sometimes I think about
it.
the beads will swing
the clouds will cloud
and the killer will behead the child
like taking a bite out of an ice cream cone.
too much
too little
too fat
too thin
or nobody
more haters than lovers.
people are not good to each other.
perhaps if they were
our deaths would not be so sad.
So by all means, call Bukowski a nazi and whoever else a filthy Jew, and why don't we just throw in all the epithets we can think of here to balance the scale so everyone can feel equally like a piece of shit.
Then can we move on?
You can't have a rational discussion, argument, whatever you want to call it once the NAZI ghost has been introduced. It's too polarizing. Why don't we just discuss religion or whether PCs or Macs are better.
Oy.
Brother Schenker
Founding member
mjp said:
Whoa, didn't know you had it in you mjp!;)
Usually we just get drips & drabs from your part of the universe.
Bless your heart for mentioning Rwanda.
I'm assuming the poem was by Buk...who else could come up with that ice cream cone line? Brilliant. The whole thing.
The biggest thing lacking in the human race is empathy. People failing to see themselves in others. People failing to imagine all the angles---or simply more than just one.
We hate the haters.
We kill the killers.
And we deny this IS Hell.
Liars, liars, pants on fire...
mjp
Founding member
Yeah, it's here too: http://bukowski.net/poems/the_crunch.phpcirerita said:
I figured everyone knew that one. ;)
yeah, Mac Davis rocks.chronic said:
I loved the Mac Davis Show when I was young.
Good one MJ.mjp said:
To the point as always.
I just wanted to pinprick some of the posters trying to write off Buk's dark subjects as the insecure musings of a high school adolescent wanting to "be different", and who really didn't understand what he was doing.
There's a lot more to it than that. Notice that in the same chapter 16 of the Bukowski-tapes, Buk says "I hope I'm wrong", when commenting on the evil viciousness of mankind.
Of course it would be ridiculous concluding that Buk was a "Nazg?l" from the isolated Adolf-statement. The poem you quoted puts this to rest well enough. But trying to smooth over the unsettling side of Buk is just as bad as trying to nazify him, in my opinion; maybe even worse.
Bukowski wasn't a cozy-wozy (or even "eBayish":rolleyes: ) sort of guy. Like all great poets he was receptive to all sides of the human condition. This isn't necessarily a nice ability to have, and it doesn't make you a "comfortable" person to be around. Some of Buk's wild, off-the-cuff statements can be attributed to his "receptiveness", if you know what I mean. Words come out before he has a chance to process/censure them. Thats part of his gift/curse/genius. Most of us are "blessed" with a dullness of mind that lets us forget the evil things going down in the world at all times. Buk's poems (like the one you quoted) help us remember.
And being aware of something, f.ex. the Adolf-phenomenon, doesn't necessarily make you a part of the phenomenon. On the other hand NOT being aware of it, or trying to smooth it over or forget it (having fun on eBay:p ), can very easily get you into trouble... just ask the Germans...
But I DO wish that this thread didn't have the N-word in it. I do. It does tend to sidetrack ppl a bit. So I'm all for putting it to rest....;)
zoom man
Founding member
Erik said:
Yeah, please close this thread.....
Nazi and Buk don't belong together....
I've got young kids here (in the city) spraying swastikas (SP?) on everything,
Trying to be funny....
And their ignorance is so ___________
I don't think Buk would have approved at all...