Was he really a Nazi?

[Brother Schenker]

Yeah, please close this thread.....
..

Fuck that shit.
Instead, please let us not ask for threads to be closed just because they make us uncomfortable. Let us not ask them to be closed for any reason.

Let us not promote censorship...
mjp has closed threads in the past...2 of which I was involved in...but I think he closed them because they were turning into flame-fests...which is understandable...

All that aside, I still think you wrote a good post, zoom man...and maybe you were just sort of/kind of/maybe/perhaps joking about the request to close this thread and I've missed the boat and jumped in here acting like some sort of quasi-hero of the First Ammendment. If so, shame on me!

 

[oneiros]

I agree totally with the above post.

Also; here is a fun fact: I admire Goebbels. He was the inventor of Propaganda, or at least the first guy to make good use of it. Using speeches, movies, posters and radio he spellbound an entire people into utter dogshit.

You have to admire that. Now, I do know the guy was a prick, but you still gotta admire that sort of talent.

Flaaaame away.

 

[Erik]

He was the inventor of Propaganda, or at least the first guy to make good use of it.

Not quite. For example: most Roman sculptures were made for propaganda purposes. Thus most sculptures of Cesar were not made to resemble him but to impress the members of the empire living far away. Art - at least sculpturing - was the propaganda of the day.

Like the Bible says: "there's nothing new under the sun."

 

[oneiros]

Ah, Erik, my fellow Ryge (western Viking):

As much as the Roman empire, the Greek empire, the Ottoman empire etc used techniques wich today might be called propaganda, I would have to disagree that they were.

The statues you are reffering to are similar to the French courts use of portraits. They had their portraits made showing themselves as heroic, beautiful etc. (Napoleon was extreme in this). This was done to impress their subjects, but not in a pure propagandistic (is that a word?) way. Propaganda is the ART in which you use commercial channels to spellbind, convince or trick a populace into a specific political view.

I can agree the Romans, French etc tried to impress their subjects, but they seldom used statues, paintings etc to convince the populace of the correctness of the State's policies. The emperor (C?sar) was infallible to the public. His word was law, and not up to debate by the common man. The same goes for the French emperors the Muslim Emirs etc.

Aaaand, go debate.

 

[MULLINAX]

Hitler may have been sired by a Jewish man and Bukowski's maternal grandmother, according to evidence supplied by Pleasants, was named Israel. Only Pleasants seems to get all excited over this "fact". Does it matter? More discussion and revelations are needed to get to the bottom of this quandry.

No. I do not admire Goebbels. He was a murderer. Your admiration is sickening. Are you serious?

 

[jordan]

goebbels was a "prick". and hitler... what a knucklehead! and mengele... a total boob!!!

maybe you can admire how goebbels was able to work the system of information dissemination toward his ends, just like you might be able to admire how eichmann was able to manage the final solution so efficiently... but saying that you admire goebbels even though he was such a "prick" seems to be taking things a little far.

 

[Bukfan]

And to call propaganda (manipulation) an ART is really far out...

 

[bright]

Art isnt good or bad,its art....although i agree that Nazipropaganda wasnt art,just quite clever and most of all consequent,unprejudiced by the idea of "GOOD" and "BAD".

Thats one thing propaganda has in common with arts,it denies old values and tries to establish new ones.
Just the goals are usually different.

...as Mr.Bukowski said:"they have escaped all teaching", which is a fundamental step to become free,but what you do with that freedom is then entirely your responsibility.

The SchickelgruberGang made a "bad" decision.

They escaped the others but they didnt escape from themselves.

..and they most probably had an unfulfilled sex life,too.:)

 

[the only good poet]

if we considered "our" beliefs we might never post. :)

 

[zoom man]

http://www.laweekly.com/columns/a-considerable-town/bukowskis-ruin/17756/

Yeah, okay, a little dated, but I hadn't seen this.....

 

[Spinbowler]

A person has to fight a long time before they see what they're actually fighting against, and that can be a very long process and an awefull struggle. During that time is it possible not to offend anyone? It must feel like we're offending everyone, because that's the nature of the trap. I don't believe the struggle arises out of a malicious intent but as a cause of being a victim of it.

 

[mrbgoode]

I don't think Pleasants explicitly says Bukowski was a Nazi, and I while I was reading it I didn't think Pleasants was attacking Buk or mischaracterizing him or lying. I heard in the book was Buk possibly exaggerating the Nazi angle, maybe revealing some latent or halfhearted sympathies, and Pleasants still wondering how serious it was. That stuff only tweaked my previous understanding of the subject from other reading, it didn't overhaul it. I think the anti-Pleasants crowd is getting a little carried away over this. Maybe they're jealous of someone who used to drink with Buk. I am. But seriously, I think Visceral Bukowski was pretty good, and nothing about it offended my Buk fan sensibilities.

 

[bospress.net]

If you look over more of the posts, you will see that there are people on this forum that corresponded with, drank with, & slept with Buk. I'm not sure if I would say that we are jealous that anyone knew him and then had a nasty falling out with him. Me, I would rather keep my heroes at arm length and avoid the kind of hurt when someone that you idolize comes out and writes nasty things about you.

The argument was that the statements are made with no evidence and with the author being the only source. Clearly Buk talked a lot to a lot of people over a VERY long time. If he talked about being a NAZI, it would certainly have been to more than one person with no witnesses.

Plus, this is not the only anti-Buk piece that we are referring to. There is the anti-Buk, Patchen piece.

Bill


p.s. Not to rehash this rumor, but if he was a NAZI, he certainly was a poor excuse for one, what with his Jewish friends (Red Stodolsky for one) and his gay friends.

 

[mjp]

I think the anti-Pleasants crowd is getting a little carried away over this.

And I think you must have read that chapter of the book after taking a handful of genuine 1973 Quaaludes.

Pleasants wasn't "wondering." How the hell is, "an understanding of Bukowski's Nazi loyalties is key to everything he ever wrote" "wondering?" It's the most stupid thing I've ever read anyone say about anything, but it certainly isn't "wondering."

The fact remains, and will remain forever and ever, that it was the height of cowardice to wait until after Bukowski's death to publish a book with that slant ("whenever discussing Hitler his eyes brightened") and those accusations.

When Pleasants dies (very soon, I pray to the good LORD BABY JESUS), I am going to write an article about the conversations we had. You know, my memories of them. How his eyes brightened when he saw young boys on the street and how wistfully, and with great affection, he discussed his enthusiastic practice of pedophilia, and reminisced about sex with his mother. After her death.

Who will be able to dispute that my memories of our conversations are untrue?

 

[mrbgoode]

"If you look over more of the posts, you will see that there are people on this forum that corresponded with, drank with, & slept with Buk."
OK, I see what you mean. And I'm jealous of you.

"Pleasants wasn't "wondering.""
You know, maybe that was me. I can see that I probably took Pleasants's conviction lightly and tempered it with my own attitude toward the topic, which I think is that Buk said things to be provocative. So what I heard Pleasants saying may not have been what others heard. I still don't think Pleasants lied about Buk's comments. If Bukowski's eyes brightened when talking about Hitler, it was because he was thinking "ah-ha I can rattle his cage awhile," which seems to be one of Bukowski's favorite sports. I can relate to that.
Well, back to my 1973 quaaludes.

 

[hoochmonkey9]

Well, back to my 1973 quaaludes.

hey. don't Bogart.

 

[bospress.net]

"If you look over more of the posts, you will see that there are people on this forum that corresponded with, drank with, & slept with Buk."
OK, I see what you mean. And I'm jealous of you.

My point being that because someone went to Bukowski's house a few times in the 70's does not make me all glossy-eyed. Me, I never met him, never corresponded with him, etc, etc.

And it is cool be jealous of me anyway....

Bill

 

[jmoshea]

'If Bukowski's eyes brightened when talking about Hitler, it was because he was thinking "ah-ha I can rattle his cage awhile," which seems to be one of Bukowski's favorite sports.'

I think you are on to something there.

 

[poptop]

I don't think so

In Ham on Rye, Bukowski wrote:

When I was a kid and Max Schmeling K.O.'d Joe Louis, I had run out into the street looking for my buddies, yelling "Hey, Max Schmeling K.O.'d Joe Louis!" And nobody answered me, nobody said anything, they had just walked away with their heads down. [end.]

Others may have posted similar thoughts, but I'd say there were times when Bukowski appeared to strongly identify with German culture and his enthusiasm blurted out of him; but I never felt that Buk's identification of things German justified any serious criticism that he was a Nazi in application, outlook or philosophy. Instead, I always felt that he was unconscious of or playing off of other people's reactions, as in the case of Schmeling's victory or Hitler's rise to power. I believe he also wrote childhood stories of the German air ace, Baron von Richthofen. And why shouldn't he, being half-German? It was in his blood. Although he was born in Germany and was there only a short time before coming to America, his mother Katharina was a native German. The German vibe was in his genes and he grew up in it... I also think he enjoyed his visit to Germany with Linda in 1978, and seemed to feel right at home there. Overall, however, I think he made it plain in his writings that he was basically apolitical, including any serious interest in Nazism; it seems ridiculous for anyone to have to point this out... For the critics who hate him - and there are plenty enough out there - the accusations of Bukowski's supposed Nazism is their feeble attempt to cut his reputation down to size and make it seem like he's not worth reading. And the reason why that cheap-shot strategy hasn't worked overall is because the charge isn't true.

 

[roni]

I don't think Pleasants explicitly says Bukowski was a Nazi ...

I'd say the headline 'When Bukowski was a Nazi' is an explicit statement, no?

 

[Gerard K H Love]

If we all agree Ben Pleasants was speculating and sensationalizing then let's put this and the other threads to rest. Bukowski was not a n*zi and the rest is just bullshit. There are so many other very nice things and not so nice things to go on about.

 

[marqcoig]

has anyone taken into account that when the nazis were in power Hank was a very young man--a teenager when Hitler became chancellor--and had a strong, domineering German-American father and a German mother, and perhaps that youthful ignorance may have had SOMETHING to do with his joining a pro-Nazi group? hell, when i was 18 i thought Communism was cool...that's part of getting older, isn't it? (i'm only 28, many of you are much older than me. i find it hard to believe you weren't ignorant or misinformed in your own youth, as well.)

 

[chronic]

i find it hard to believe you weren't ignorant or misinformed in your own youth, as well.

I was too high at the time to be ignorant or misinformed. I did find a lot of time to be stupid though.

 

[Father Luke]

when i was 18 i thought Communism was cool...

There goes the value of your house. . .

 

[roni]

... i find it hard to believe you weren't ignorant or misinformed in your own youth, as well.

i was in the anti-nukes-movement when i was 17.
i Never ever believed in anything right from the middle-left nor far left of that.
at age 12, i started drawing comics (aka graphic novels) about aliens that come to visit the earth and are so disgusted by what happens here, they vomit or try to escape or commit suicide (depends on the episode)

but - i can't write decent poetry.

 

[hank solo]

...about aliens that come to visit the earth and are so disgusted by what happens here, they vomit or try to escape or commit suicide (depends on the episode) ...

Made me think of Petey and Jaydee, although they're completely nothing like what you were talking about roni.

 

[Joseph K]

I go with poptop on this. Also, I think he was out to antagonise people. We can all get cussed sometimes.

 

[Mark73]

Maybe I don't get the point of what this is all about, but if someone calls Bukowski a Nazi, you might as well call him chauvinist and sexist.But that would be not scratching the surface.My mother has german roots and was a child when the Nazis took over Germany, my father's roots go back to Mongolia (if that is written correct,I mean the asian country) and he was born in Libau.I was born in Germany and I think there are bigger problems than tossing about whether Bukowski was nazi or not.
Don't get me wrong, you may think about it all day long, in the end I really don't care.
But what about real threats? In this country I live in there still is so much right wing shit happening,like Neo Nazis demonstrating in Dortmund last year.2500 idiots were marching through the streets,there were police fences everywhere to keep them seperated from the rest of the streets and Antifascists to avoid a violent escalation.The police was EVERYWHERE in armour suits and directed people where to go,I don't know how many weren't allowed to go to their houses or shopping malls,the town was totally fenced in the centre to pave a way for the Neo Nazis to walk on without having contact to anyone not involved with their demonstration.I mean,come on,the citizens couldn't walk free in their own town.There was no violence in the end,but the year before the city burned.
Two years before that,a streetpunk was killed with a knife by a 17 year old Neo Nazi.When friends of the victim gathered later at the place he died they were attacked by Neo Nazis ready for hospital.
I mean,this REALLY happens.

 

[Short Bus]

...I think there are bigger problems than tossing about whether Bukowski was nazi or not.

Maybe but this is bukowski.net it's what we do.

 

[Bukfan]

Bukowski was a left handed homosexual nazi. And now that's settled, perhaps we could move on...:cool: