What other writers have you read because Bukowski told you so?

[zoom man]

Hamsun could write but he couldn't think straight. A good poet must do both.

I totally disagree with the later part....
I love Knut's books
(even if I don't know how to pronounce his first name:> )
And think crazies (those who can't think straight) aren't barred from producing decent, and even awesome poetry.
I certainly despise all Hitler stood for, and hate the fact that Mr Hamsun was sympathetic, but still, I can appreciate his writing. I think I have all of his stuff.
If I knew me purchasing Knut's shit contributed to Hitler's cause, then I'd be done with buying more (but I still wouldn't burn what I had, it's good shit)

 

[cirerita]

I read one of Houellebecq's books, can't recall the title now, probably the most famous one. It kind of disappointed me, though.

yeah, I read both Hamsun and Celine were pro-nazi, but I couldn't care less. I dig their books, not their lives.

 

[Erik]

I certainly despise all Hitler stood for, and hate the fact that Mr Hamsun was sympathetic, but still, I can appreciate his writing. I think I have all of his stuff.

Writing and life should always be linked. Good writing isn't neutral just because its good writing. Hitler was just as gifted as an orator as Hamsun was as a writer. They both duped ppl in similar ways, thru technique with flawed content. This is a common weakness in many writers.

Good writing is worthless without real living. Do you admire Hitler's speeches in the same way you admire Hamsun's writing? ;)

I guess its all right to admire Hamsun's technique, but all in all he's flawed as an author - at least in my opinion. He didn't "walk thru the fire" in a way I admire.

 

[cirerita]

of course living and writing are intertwined, but mostly in the author's life. as a reader, I simply don't care how a good/bad doctor Celine was or if he really worshipped Hitler or Mahoma. that took a toll in his life, for sure, and maybe even helped somehow to create interesting stuff.

you don't have to live the author's life to enjoy his books.

 

[zoom man]

Good point Erik,
And I totally respect hitler's orating skills,
Egads, all politicians would win if they could speak with hitler's emotion,
That, you have to compliment,
But I still don't agree.

Good writing is never worthless...... no matter the source, time, particular situtation, etc.
I don't need a history of the author before I can give an honest critique of his work

And I don't think you have to necessarily 'walk thru the fire' to write (well, that means).
Egads, I hope not.
I'm working on my Opus know, and I can't claim any of the above
(though the embers hurt like hell)

 

[Erik]

Of course my opinion on Hamsun most likely has something to do with my upbringing. Both my parents grew up in Norway during the Nazi occupation in WW2, and when asked about Hamsun they usually start their reply with something like: "you mean the Nazi?" or some such...

For some reason they never say: "oh you mean the wonderful genius who won the Nobel prize for literature?" :D

By the way, Hamsun spent some time in "Amerika" and the year before Hunger was released he put out the book called The Cultural Life of Modern America in which he attacks the "low" quality of American culture. He also has quite a few rasist statemants against black ppl.
But of course, its all well written... :p

 

[mjp]

Nazism, cannibalism or child abuse aside, you have to separate the artist from the art in most cases, or we would have empty libraries, museums, movie theaters and concert halls. Everyone has a scumbag quality or two if you dig deep enough. Sometimes you don't have to dig at all. But if we start to qualify art based on the artist's personality, we're dooming ourselves to a world of mediocrity, outright crap and nothingness.

Remember that the Nazis (and other dictatorial, fascist or totalitarian "governments") suppressed and destroyed art that didn't fit into their world view.

 

[SamDusky]

Hear; Hear. And, also, people sometimes make bad calls based on their early limited, erroeous information; they might evolve and amend their views based on new data. Does anyone know if Hamsun ever recanted his Nazi support later?

SD

 

[hoochmonkey9]

seperation of art and artist is very important. if I didn't know anything about Hamsun's personal life, I could never tell from his novels that he supported the Nazi ideal. It's unfortunate that I do know about Hamsun's politics, because try as I might, it still taints my opinion of his work. I read Growth of the Soil and Hunger before I knew of his leanings and loved them. I still love them, but a bit sadly now...

 

[Erik]

[...] Everyone has a scumbag quality or two if you dig deep enough. Sometimes you don't have to dig at all. But if we start to qualify art based on the artist's personality, we're dooming ourselves to a world of mediocrity, outright crap and nothingness. [...]

Whoaaa MJ! who mentioned Hamsun's personality? I'm talking about actual, concrete deeds and actions. The guy supported Adolf H, whose cronies murdered thousands of Hamsun's countrymen. I don't have a clue about his personality though.

Hamsun's writing was an action and his political deeds another. They're both actions. All I'm saying is that his actions in politics leave me extremely skeptical to his actions in writing.There's a coldness there, a hardness, a lack of irony & humor, that puts me off. But hey, thats just my opinion.

And I agree that "scumbag qualities" are part of every person's "dark side", and they're often more prominent with authors & artists. Great authors can tap this dark pool of madness, as a resource. Thats why we need them. But - in my opinion - the best authors are best because they can "handle" their dark side, either by strength, discipline, will power, intellect, talent, instinct, alcohol, luck, or whatever you wanna call it.

Hamsun gave in to the dark side, the vain, weak bastard. ;)

On the other hand: Hamsun was extremely old during WW2, and had all but stopped writing. One could say that he was just an old fuddy duddy who got duped in his Alzheimer years. But he never recanted. During the trial the court pronounced that he had "impaired mental faculties" (just like Ez Pound!), but he refused to acknowledge this and demanded a full trial which he did not get. All his possessions were impounded. He consequently went on to write his last book to prove that his "mental faculties" were intact (On Overgrown Paths, published in 1949 when he was 90!).

For an author that had a much deeper dark pool of madness and still managed to handle it, see August Strindberg's masterpiece INFERNO.

Also worth checking out: Arne Garborg's Weary Men which came out the year after Hunger.

 

[d gray]

article on hamsun from new yorker http://www.newyorker.com/printables/critics/051226crat_atlarge

 

[mjp]

Whoaaa MJ! who mentioned Hamsun's personality? I'm talking about actual, concrete deeds and actions. The guy supported Adolf H, whose cronies murdered thousands of Hamsun's countrymen.

Yeah, I'm aware of what Hitler and his henchmen did. I'm not defending Hamsun, I've never read a word he's written. I'm just saying, and will continue to say, that you can't judge art on the saintliness or evilness of the creator of the art.

Actually, you can't even judge art. Whether art is good or bad is subjective, and the consensus changes on what is good or bad as the years go by.

I don't think it's cool to support fascists, or collect scribbles that Charles Manson made in a California prison cell, but those are extremes. But once you set the standard using an extreme, someone will come along and move your standard a little bit, then a little bit more, and the next thing you know they are throwing brown haired artists who paint left handed and voted for Schwarzenegger into "relocation" camps out in the desert.

 

[SamDusky]

I think I hate Hitler with a virulence that is shared by most in the civilized world. And being 1/4 Norwegian, I am quite ashamed of Hamsun. That said, his art will stand on its own. As Larry Flint said, "I am just the kind of despicable, loathsome person that the First Amendment was written to protect." Anything this side of exposing state secrets that jeopardize the country's vital security or how to manufacture homemade bio-weapons should be censored in the subjective, and not by the government. Otherwise, we're headed for a more fascist state than we have now. (And they are censoring plenty already.)

SD

 

[HenryChinaski]

I wonder if Buk ever read any Hermann Hesse.
I found a copy of "Demian" at the library and boy is it marvelous. Talk about timeless writing.

Hesse's writing has a sort of immortal feel to it.

 

[chronic]

"Demian" was great, as was "Steppenwolf." It's been around thirty years since I've read either of these but I think I may read them again. I think that I may be able to get more out of them now that I'm old(er).

Funny how some books that you re-read when you're older can reveal things that you may have entirely missed (or misunderstood) when you were young. Anyone under twenty should read Eliot's "Little Gidding" from the "Four Quartets," and then re-read it in twenty years time. You'll likely find that it's a completely different poem from the one you read when you were young.

 

[mjp]

I read all of Hesse's books when I was in my 20's, but now at my advanced, cynical age I wonder whether I was reading Hesse or his translators. Either way, I dug it.

I saw a crazy 16mm film based on Siddhartha back in the '80's in Santa Monica or Venice somewhere. It was a good, fresh night and a crazy movie.

 

[HenryChinaski]

well I'm glad at least somebody else on these boards appreciates his work because I've been delving into it these past couple days.

 

[cirerita]

yep, I also read Hesse's work when I was 17 or 18. I think that's the best age for that kind of books.

 

[puke]

Another vote for Journey (Manheim translation.) Jems on almost every page. I recall Buk said it was the only good book Celine wrote. I thought Death on the Installment Plan was OK.

 

[bongobill]

i don't think so
i can't remember

:o

 

[Brother Schenker]

I've tried many of Buk's favourites. I didn't like some of them, found them dull. I liked Fante's Ask The Dust. Buk said many times Fante was his god. Fante laid the line down cleanly and unpretentiously, and so did Buk.

I enjoyed Hamsun's Hunger. He also wrote a thin book, a love story, can't remember the title...Valerie? I liked it, too. Tried to read his others and found them dull.

Celine's Journey had two magnificent parts. One takes place in a Detroit car plant in the 1920s, and the other takes place in a public loo in New York City circa the 1920s. The writing about the loo is sheer, explosive poetry. Phenomenal disgust. Literary vomit with bright yellow bile. He was a volcano of rage & hatred & repulsion. I loved it.

I believe Journey influenced Henry Miller's writing to a very large extent. He redd it after he published Tropic of Cancer but before he wrote Tropic of Capricorn. And Cancer sucks but Capricorn kicks ass. I think Journey helped Miller find his own voice and trust it.

Mind, this is all intuitive conjecture in conjunction with past consumption of various letters, novels, and bios by & on Miller. (Belch) And that's good enough for me.

I'm gonna try Death on the Installment Plan. Looked at it once years ago and saw how fat it was and said no thanks. But I'm hankering for some angry writing so I'll give it another go.

 

[Erik]

I enjoyed Hamsun's Hunger. He also wrote a thin book, a love story, can't remember the title...Valerie? I liked it, too.

Victoria? or maybe Pan?

But I'm hankering for some angry writing so I'll give it another go.

Have you tried Hamsun's Mysteries? Its angry enough.
Why not: Tired Men (or was it Weary Men?) by Arne Garborg. Better than most of what Hamsun wrote, in my opinion.

 

[the only good poet]

buk also mentioned, maybe a couple of times in correspondence, and in poems, cesar vallejo. he was a tough nut to crack. i'm particularly enthrall to the posthumous stuff.

li po. i kind of connect b.'s "don't try" with the taoist's wu-wei - living spontaneously as opposed to acting with self-conscious attention.

 

[cirerita]

césar vallejo is a true master of the word...

 

[Beathriz]

I've been looking for some Sherwood Anderson, as Buk mentions him multiple times in a positive light in , 'The Captain is out to lunch..."
Says something about how Anderson 'plays with words as if they were rocks, or bits of food to be eaten'...
http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/journalism/anderbio.html

 

[the only good poet]

sermon on barbarism. payroll of bones

césar vallejo is a true master of the word...

yes! only wish i could read him in the original. what are we missing? i love the paradoxes, the earnest playfulness. the animal repose, the indigenous intellect.

anyone interested in celine wouldn't go far wrong in hunting down milton hindus' fascinating sketch the crippled giant.

 

[ribaij]

A note on Hamsun

Keep in mind though that Hamsun was a Nazi and a traitor to rival Quisling.:mad:

In an online game of chess, this guy from Israel asked where I was from, when I replied he immediately typed; Oslo, Norway? Land of Nazi Hamsun!. I wish poets stayd the hell away from politics.

As I understand it, the Hamsun-scholars agree that there is no trace of anti-Semitism or Nazism in Hamsun?s literary work.

Both Bukowski and John Fante considered Hamsun to be the best writer ever. I can?t remember if it was in an interview or in one of his books, where Dan Fante (son of John Fante) describes standing in his father?s office, looking at the bookshelf, where Hamsun?s books had a special section.

By the way, Hamsun won The Nobel Prize in Literature, in 1920, for his work; ?Growth of the Soil?.

 

[Paul B.]

Hamsun , one of the greats , it seems by the time the nazis rolled into view he was an old man and just did not comprehend the full extent of what they were trying to do (like quite a few others) - Mysteries, Dreamers, Hunger, Pan - all really good books. And his last one - a kind of bittersweet ode - On Overgrown Paths - is autobiographical and speaks of the nazi part of his life. He was a great artist.

Jeffers - a fave of mine - could be said to be crueler than Hitler or any of them. He didn't even believe in going into ww2. He was just extremely disillusioned by humanity (you can't really say that about Hitler, can you?)

Fante - very human, very enduring.

That's all.

 

[ribaij]

Sherwood Anderson

I've been looking for some Sherwood Anderson

I read Fante, Celiné & Anderson... cause BUK told me to :rolleyes:

Here is my favorite from the one book I have read by Anderson;


The old man had listed hundreds of truths in his book. I will not try to tell you all of them. There was the truth of virginity and the truth of passion, the truth of wealth and of poverty, of thrift and profligacy, of carefulness and abandon. Hundreds of hundreds were the truths and they were all beautiful.
And the people came along. Each as he appeared snatched up one of the truths and some who were quite strong snatched up a dozen of them.
It was the truths that made the people grotesques. The old man had quite an elaborate theory concerning the matter. It was his notion that the moment one of the people took one of the truths to himself, called it his truth, and tried to live his life by it, he became grotesque and the truth he embraced became a falsehood.
Sherwood Anderson (1876-1941)
Excerpt from (?The Book of the Grotesque?) Winesburgh, Ohio (1919)

WORD!

 

[slimedog]

I think I've mostly been disappointed by Bukowski's influences and the ones I've liked I read, like McCullers and Dos, before I knew he liked them.