Beatles or Stones (or Kinks? Monkees? Herman's Hermits?)

[Purple Stickpin]

OK, I just did, and I will.

It's a brilliant lyric, but even the simple matter of the repetitive chorus renders it more of a lyric than a poem.

I refuse to further denegrate Dylan lyrics with poetic comparisons. A good many of Dylan's lyrics are far, far, far, far better than poetry. Better than even the fucking concept of poetry. They just ain't that noun.

Fair enough?


P.S., they're punk!

 

[Billville]

The lyrics to Stairway to Heaven? Please. They are random crap at best.

Sure ... when you play the record FORWARD. Now try playing it the CORRECT way. :D

 

[Digney in Burnaby]

^

Now read Mr. Tambourine Man by Bob and tell me the same thing.

I double dare you.

That's just plain where the hog is washed.

My brain is about to explode! (Er, that happened years ago...)

As I will put it up (MTM) against any poem ever written!!!

From any BUK poem to The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock (and all the BUK fans who will ceremoniously shit on that poem can kiss my grits).

And, I'm getting ready to duck...then pass out viagra to those who don't get it.

:eek:

;)

A poem is nothing without a master orator. by Capt. Kirk.

 

[mjp]

Music can give very trite words an emotional impact. The music combined with the melody and rhythm of the lyric work together to make the desired impression. Even a beginning songwriter realizes there are things you can do with a handful of chords or notes to create mood or feelings of happiness or sadness, without any words at all.

So what? How many Beatles can dance on the grave of Lynyrd Skynyrd? Why is Joe Strummer dead and Garth Brooks alive, and even thriving? Because there is no justice and the universe is random and chaotic!

Um, I mean:

Lyrics are not meant to be poetry. They are meant to mingle with the music in a very specific way, and are usually written to conform to the music, and not at all in the way the author might convey the same sentiment with words alone.

On the flipside, poems are not meant to be lyrics, which is why hack douchebags like Jim Carroll managed to put out such cringeworthy records. Square peg + round hole + idiot = crap.

So when you call someone's lyrics poetry, you are shortchanging the author, who, if s/he was not writing lyrics would have probably written something quite different.

Apples, oranges, get over it.

Sure ... when you play the record FORWARD. Now try playing it the CORRECT way.

Ah! Now I hear the message!

hail Satan daily in your donut, lick his crust butt
his hairy thighs and his blistering skin

mmmmaaaaa! mmmmaaaaa!

and when my hand is on the stove
colostomy bags in my treasure trove
I mix oatmeal with crushed light bulb
and insert fishooks in my nose

fortune plinked my platforms
frustration ate my cheese
mascara, mascara
Satan is not satin
my snuggly trousers are satin, not Satan
diaper bag
doo rag

(solo)

 

[slimedog]

I think Jim Carroll's first album had excellent lyrics.

But then I'd much rather listen to Paul Revere & the Raiders than Bob Dylan.

But MJP's lyrics in the last post is some of the best poetry I've ever read, sorry Buk.

 

[Gerard K H Love]

Here, just in case anyone does not get the Rolling Stones . You'll find it will clear up most of this poetry lyrics debate. ( While listening to that you can't help but picture the bearded beatniks sitting around in their berets snapping their fingers, cool daddy-O.)

Slimedog is right .

 

[homeless mind]

(PART A) It's a brilliant lyric, (PART B) but even the simple matter of the repetitive chorus renders it more of a lyric than a poem.

Agree with Part A of your statement. However, as for Part B, I don't dislike choruses in poetry. It's part of the batter, sometimes. And the batter makes the cake rise. Not in all cases, but sometimes.

I refuse to further denegrate Dylan lyrics with poetic comparisons. A good many of Dylan's lyrics are far, far, far, far better than poetry. Better than even the fucking concept of poetry. They just ain't that noun.

That's just full-speed ahead original, cool thinking; how the fuck could I disagree?

Fair enough?

I know you are fair in your assessments, so of course, my brother.

P.S., they're punk!

Hmmm. I am a witness to the thinking, but still question it when the world views "punk" as a time and place of music. Not being a ball-breaker here, just having a different POV; where I can witness both and agree.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And as for the noun (poetry) and the adjective (lyrics), the jury here is still 12-angry men.

lyrique, lyircus, etc.

See any definition of lyric or lyrics, and you stumble upon the word poetry.

And I'll throw another song into the mix, "Imagine" by JL.

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Somehow, I feel like I made my point again, but so did you.

Pax

(LINER NOTE: California Girls by the Beach Boys = Lyrics. Imagine = Poetry. Not apples and oranges, but frozen, freeze-dried fruit and organically grown. Perhaps it has to do with the content. Along with the actual writing style, etc. So I'm not over it...)

 

[mjp]

...the world views "punk" as a time and place of music.

The world views lighter skinned people as superior to darker skinned people too. Doesn't make it true.

The lyrics to Imagine are a great example!

...of a moving lyric that looks like something from a junior high creative writing class when considered as a poem.

 

[homeless mind]

The lyrics to Imagine are a great example!...of a moving lyric that looks like something from a junior high creative writing class when considered as a poem.

I'm not sure what you mean by your first comment.

And Jackson Pollock splattered paint. Like my five-year old, right?

Hardy Har Har.

Throw darts at the target, not the floor. ;)

 

[Purple Stickpin]

...the world views "punk" as a time and place of music.

That's because the world, by and large, loves to be spoon-fed and taught how to categorize things by THE MAN. Once you wipe the commerical image of a record store with a little white plastic divider that says "Punk Rock" out of your mind, you begin to understand "punk" as a concept, not a money-making tool to attract studded leather belts and safety-pins to a certain section of the music department.

The lyrics to Imagine are a great example!

...of a moving lyric that looks like something from a junior high creative writing class when considered as a poem.

I have to admit, it reads like total piece of juvenile crap. Put Lennon at the white Steinway Model Z piano with it, and it's brilliant.

 

[homeless mind]

IMAGINE

I have to admit, it reads like total piece of juvenile crap.

You just knocked the wind out of me...

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Hey, it's nothing personal; just opinion. I love the song; the lyrics, the music, but hey, it just reads lousy. Like it's from a Romper Room episode, and everybody gets an extra lollipop.

 

[homeless mind]

So you need music or a melody to understand the meaning of the words?

Or you just like the music? And the words have no meaning?

I like green lollipops. Go figure.

 

[slimedog]

Here, just in case anyone does not get the Rolling Stones . You'll find it will clear up most of this poetry lyrics debate. ( While listening to that you can't help but picture the bearded beatniks sitting around in their berets snapping their fingers, cool daddy-O.)

Slimedog is right .

Paul Revere & the Raiders are the band that SHOULD have the place of the Beatles-much better band, immaculate poetry (I imagine, Imagine does suck) and I know Buk liked all his lardy-dardy classical music but if he was in a rock band he would be in PR&R. I can picture him in the outfit, playing bass.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

So you need music or a melody to understand the meaning of the words?

Or you just like the music? And the words have no meaning?

Neither is true. Were you a lawyer in a previous lifetime? You just asked me the musical equivalent of "have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

 

[mjp]

I'm not sure what you mean by your first comment.

What Purple Stickpin said. "What the world believes" does not equal truth.

So you need music or a melody to understand the meaning of the words?

Or you just like the music? And the words have no meaning?

You're not getting it. The words and the music are one. They are lyrics, not poetry. You keep wanting to separate them, but it isn't fair to the writer. Because as a poem it's cliched and obvious at best. Greeting card stuff. But as part of the whole of the song, very nice. Positive.

...I know Buk liked all his lardy-dardy classical music but if he was in a rock band he would be in PR&R. I can picture him in the outfit, playing bass.

Now that would have been 100% punk rock!

Last night I was watching the interview snippets that didn't make it into the Joe Strummer documentary, and someone told the story of being out with him at some restaurant or bar in Los Angeles, and Monica Lewinsky walked in. Joe ran over to her and said, "I'm Joe Strummer, but you're punk rock!"

You see? Nothing to do with music, and why my dog can be as punk rock - or more so, really - than the kids from Green Day.

 

[homeless mind]

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it...


Pax

homeless mind

(from a fave ghost -- RK)

 

[slimedog]

True but punk music is still a style of music that I doubt your dog plays-would we say hey he's really prog rock or my dog is country rock? I don't think so.

But back to the matter at hand. Paul Revere & the Raiders were Buk's favorite sixties band even if he didn't know it. If it wasn't for Bukowski, I'm sure Mark Lindsay (their lead singer) would've become the premier underground poet & you MJP (yes, you) would have a forum dedicated to him and you're dog would not be considered punk rock but reggae. And everyone should imagine a world without Paul Revere & the Raiders and bless their lucky stars that it just ain't true. Bob Dylan isn't punk he's folk and his dog isn't reggae or calypso music. In fact Dylan gave the Beatles pot and they wrote all those goofy lyrics while Paul Revere took downs. Mark Lindsay did not have a dog but a cat who preferred indie rock and ragtime.

 

[scribbler]

some pertinece delivered about "punk" by a darned good one.

 

[Mark73]

Punk is dead, didn't you realize?

HA HA

:D :D

 

[mjp]

True but punk music is still a style of music that I doubt your dog plays-would we say hey he's really prog rock or my dog is country rock? I don't think so.

But back to the matter at hand. Paul Revere & the Raiders were Buk's favorite sixties band even if he didn't know it. If it wasn't for Bukowski, I'm sure Mark Lindsay (their lead singer) would've become the premier underground poet & you MJP (yes, you) would have a forum dedicated to him and you're dog would not be considered punk rock but reggae. And everyone should imagine a world without Paul Revere & the Raiders and bless their lucky stars that it just ain't true. Bob Dylan isn't punk he's folk and his dog isn't reggae or calypso music. In fact Dylan gave the Beatles pot and they wrote all those goofy lyrics while Paul Revere took downs. Mark Lindsay did not have a dog but a cat who preferred indie rock and ragtime.

Well that may be the Rosetta Stone of modern music there. It explains it all.

 

[Mark73]

True but punk music is still a style of music that I doubt your dog plays-would we say hey he's really prog rock or my dog is country rock? I don't think so.

Punk is an attitude and a way of life. In the end it's not the concerts, record collection, merch and dies, spikes, hairstyle... but what you think and do. Simple as that. A lot of musicians emerged from Punk but play a different sound today. Rammstein for example, they don't sound punk, but does it make them less punk? No.

I consider those working for Amnesty International PUNK AS FUCK.

I consider those Green Blink Charlottes PUNK AS FOZZY BEAR.

Talking about animals, my beagle Barney can bark " Banned In D.C. ", no guitar needed.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it...

Fair enough, but methinks good old Rudyard was not referring to the masses, and you're the one clinging to the status quo, re: punk. This surprises me; you paint and write as a free spirit, but then cling to the establishment when it comes to the compartmentalized categories concocted by the music industry; one of the most foul of the foulest. Thy mind is far more open than that, I wouldst think.

Peace and rock on, of course!

True but punk music is still a style of music that I doubt your dog plays-would we say hey he's really prog rock or my dog is country rock? I don't think so.

Mark Lindsay (their lead singer)

I have two dogs from Alabama, and neither on of them barks with a drawl (and they Hate Garth Brooks). Therefore, I love them. :rolleyes: I play a great deal of prog, and they tolerate me. Go figure.

Was Mark Lindsay (of Arizona "fame") the same guy? If so, I never knew that. I con't really care, but I never knew that.

 

[homeless mind]

Fair enough, but methinks good old Rudyard was not referring to the masses, and you're the one clinging to the status quo, re: punk. This surprises me; you paint and write as a free spirit, but then cling to the establishment when it comes to the compartmentalized categories concocted by the music industry; one of the most foul of the foulest. Thy mind is far more open than that, I wouldst think.

I'm not sure where this took a left-hand turn, but I fall on no cross for PUNK. Don't claim to know much about the music, nor claim to care for its definition in this social networking site.

I do know I care about John Lennon, his writing, his legacy. Not that you don't, and I won't speak for you. But I try to model my mental life after him and Bob Marley in certain ways. That may be childish, absurd, or brilliant. Don't know. Don't care. But give peace a chance, well, that says it all for me.

Peace and rock on, of course!

Pax, my brother...all my love to you and yours. There is no negative here.

Just accepting the inevitable...and fading like a sunset of thought...

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Allow me to muddy the waters a bit. Here's a lyric that, to me, comes closer to poetry than those we have been discussing. Keep in mind, I don't mean it's better than Dylan's stuff, or Lennon's stuff, but it hangs in poetic form a bit better.

Maybe because it's more sparse, I don't know. I've edited the line spacing only:

Eight miles high and
when you touch down
You'll find that it's
stranger than known

Signs in the street
that say where
you're going
Are somewhere just
being
their own

Nowhere is there warmth
to be found
Among those afraid
of
losing their ground

Rain gray town known
for its
sound
In places
small
faces unbound

Round the
squares huddled
in storms
Some laughing some
just
shapeless forms

Sidewalk scenes
and
black limousines
Some living
some
standing alone

 

[strangegirl]

i would say that for me when I write lyrics I am responding to the music.
When I write, or i should say, try to write poetry I'm responding to something else entirely.
I am not trying to fit words in, to make a melodic statement. I am just writing.
When I write songs, I usually write the music first, and so it's the melodic flow that inspires the words. Also the rhythm has an influence on that as well.

Poetry writing for me is not that way. I write what is inside me not trying to make it flow in any particular way except for the way i feel the words come out of me.

It's hard for me to see lyrics to a song as poetry they way poetry is viewed. Not to say that it has any less value it's just possibly motivated by something else.

Just my 2 cents:)

 

[slimedog]

Imagine lyrics, well, just seems a bunch of hippy-dippy sentiments and I don't think he had a dog but if he did it might've bit Yoko, all the cat screeching and such. I think Rammstein is my favorite current band, next to the Spice Girls, but they play industrial metal or something. Now that I think of it Buk was in Sam the Sham & the Pharoahs (best visual band of all time) but was jealous of the Kinks for their big influence & their dog, who was punk but listened to sea chanteys and Irish reggae. Italian goth is the true punk sound only fully sonically realized by Mark Lindsay's new French band Jock Itch.

 

[Gerard K H Love]

Very well put, not so strange girl.
I always had a hard time(and still do) understanding what words that are being sung. So for years I cared more for the beat and melody. I remember some hippy wanna be in 1970 going on about how heavy the lyrics are in Led Zeppelin songs. He was so full of shit anyway and I had no idea what they were singing. They had a good beat, played good guitar and Stairway was a slow dance song with which to cop a feel.
Just heard a great song tonight, instrumental. Oh shit, now what?

 

[marina del rey]

For my dollar, you can't have a debate about lyrics versus poetry versus punk without at least mentioning the great punk lyrical poet Gary Portnoy.

Making your way in the world today
takes everything
you've got
Taking a break from all your worries
sure would help
a lot

Wouldn't you like to get away?

Sometimes
you
want to go

Where everybody
knows
your name,
and they're always
glad
you came
you wanna be where
you can see,
our troubles are
all
the same
you wanna be where
everybody
knows
your name

 

[strangegirl]

I think that there are songs written that the words are purposely unintelligible but, they flow with the music. Think of all the words people get wrong to songs. I think there was a thread about this misinterpretation of song lyrics somewhere around here.:)

hold on I'll go see if I can find it.................

Okay I guess I was wrong.