The Outlaw Poets of American Poetry

[chronic]

It's an ugly thing, and so ridiculous, because the larger world doesn't give a fig for poetry. It's the battle of the small pond.

Everyone wants to be Yertle the Turtle?

I'm Yertle the Turtle
Oh marvelous me
For I am the ruler
Of all that I see

 

[Rekrab]

Exactly, and they all have thin shells.

 

[Lolita Twist]

Rekrab, that was the Gettysburg address of what I've been trying to say for the past three days on here haha. Thank you. (Referring to your longer post on page 2).

 

[Rekrab]

Thanks, LG. My rant might sound like sour grapes, and at one time it probably was sour grapes ("the bigs won't publish me, well screw them! The small press rules...") but I don't think it's that now. I've seen "success" close up and it's not a bed of roses. The idea of having a book out from a big publisher and going on the road doing a hundred readings and signings to handfuls of people at bookshops and libraries -- what's the appeal of that? Besides, commercially published books just don't look as good to me as small press stuff. Even if you enjoyed that routine, think what all the adoration would do to your soul.

 

[Lolita Twist]

"It's a cage with gold bars, baby" ;)

 

[mjp]

The idea of having a book out from a big publisher and going on the road doing a hundred readings and signings to handfuls of people at bookshops and libraries -- what's the appeal of that?

Right, well, for a poetry collection there is no appeal to that kind of promotion because there is no payoff. Selling out your edition of 500 or 1000 copies isn't going to net you enough to buy a decent suitcase.

I don't know any poets who could afford to do that kind of promotion anyway. They have jobs. I think the people on that circuit are retired professors or kept men (or women - I've heard that some of the ladies write poetry these days too...).

But a novel of some other kind of book that people actually buy - doing hundreds of readings and signings are going to make money for the writer. You know, theoretically.

Still, it's an increasingly unusual scenario, the book tour. Unless you are already an established "name" or you become famous by winning a reality TV show prize or doing something else newsworthy. You know, like fucking Tiger Woods or Lindsay Lohan. Or both of them at the same time and having the presence of mind to remember to take some cell phone video of the whole thing.

 

[Lolita Twist]

Once it's about money, it becomes disgusting.

EDIT: Mass-production money, I meant. There's a difference between "should I buy one mansion or two?" and "should I buy bread or water?"

 

[mjp]

Right. Okay.

That's the kind of thinking that keeps artists and writers poor and begging for scraps. You must do it only for the love of creating and for nothing else! Sure.

Maybe you live in Willy Wonka's candy factory and don't need money. I live on earth, and down here, creative people are kept on a string by that kind of bullshit idealism and the dangling-carrot of impossible hope of being one of the half dozen who are singled out to make ridiculous amounts of money while the rest starve.

There's no reason an artist shouldn't be able to make a living wage by creating art. But for that to happen people have to start thinking about the scary, evil boogeyman money. If they don't, they'll be forever on the fringes and infinitely disposable. Like they are now.

Why should artistic endeavors be relegated to a ghetto class of worthlessness when a garbage truck driver or a congressman can make a living? It's because of fucked up, starry-eyed bullshit like, "Once it's about money, it becomes disgusting." That kind of thinking only reinforces the world's view of artists as idiots and guarantees a life of unnecessary poverty.

Everything is about money. If it isn't, come here and work for me. I'll teach you how to do my job. You can do it for love and I'll keep the paychecks.

 

[Rekrab]

I wasn't even thinking about the money angle. Just going on tour -- with a book of poems or a novel -- sounds like hell to me. A lot of poets are "on tour" in their region, reading everywhere they can, three or four times a week. Some of them don't even have a book they're hussling -- they just want the glory of a small crowd listening to them. Or they really enjoy the company of other poets. Not knocking it, just saying that a little of that goes a long way for me, personally.

 

[Mark73]

Once it's about money, it becomes disgusting.

EDIT: Mass-production money, I meant. There's a difference between "should I buy one mansion or two?" and "should I buy bread or water?"

What mjp said.

The difference is between selling out and earning money.

And yeah, I want to have a mansion at each of my favourite locations.
Poverty sucks so much I never, ever want to experience it again.
Luxury is a great thing and my attitude makes me a selfish greedy pig.
FTW.
:eek:

 

[Lolita Twist]

There is a difference between selling out and making money. I'm not saying we should all starve. In fact, I made that clear.

EDIT: Mass-production money, I meant. There's a difference between "should I buy one mansion or two?" and "should I buy bread or water?"

 

[Mark73]

Not that it's very important, but if a fast food company spreads a five-liner of mine printed on the burger wraps around the globe, I'm earning mass-production-mass-money.

Of course that's theoretical wishfull thinking, but I'd have no silly problem with my silly contract and the money for me and my silly family.

Let's make it two lines. People are in a hurry.

 

[Lolita Twist]

I'd be personally disgusted with that happening. Different strokes for different folks.

However... Daniel Hayes. He was my high school English teacher. Bought a beautiful, new BMW with the royalties from his books, not to mention he lives on a lavish farm with said royalties. However, he still chooses to work at a shitty, inner-city school where paint is chipping from the walls and half his students are on probation. I like that.

 

[Rekrab]

All that said, if some university press or big publisher offered to print my collected poems, of course I would accept. I'd be insane not to. My rule is you always take the money when offered. I'm just not chasing it. I don't try to publish commercially, haven't since the mid-1990s, and I don't try to do poetry readings, but if I'm asked to read, I do it, and if I was offered a deal by a big publisher, I would take it. It would stress me out, having to live that life, but I would deal with it. I guess my point is that I don't see "making it" as a writer as attractive, it's not a thing I wish for. I like hiding out, being ignored, and I like what happens in the small press. It feels real and sane to me.

The odds of that happening, I realize, are very small.

 

[mjp]

There is a difference between selling out and making money. I'm not saying we should all starve. In fact, I made that clear.

EDIT: Mass-production money, I meant. There's a difference between "should I buy one mansion or two?" and "should I buy bread or water?"

Hmm. Well, your EDIT didn't really make anything clear to me. It still sounds like the status quo. "one mansion or two?" is extreme wealth, but "should I buy bread or water?" sounds like poverty. All I'm saying that doing things or embracing ideas that contribute to your own poverty is shortsighted and idiotic.

I have to say though, I love the bit about the teacher with the "beautiful" new BMW with the "lavish" farm teaching the poor, deprived city kids. I wonder, does he park his "beautiful" new BMW near the school? Does he bring those kids on probation out to his "lavish" farm on the weekends? Someone call the pope, this guy needs to be made a saint. Get Will Smith on the phone. I think I just found his next shitty movie.

I don't know what he was supposed to illustrate - he seems to represent everything you are saying is vile: the expensive car and property that he purchased with the filthy wages of his sold out soul. What I seem to hear you saying is it's okay to do the things that you find "disgusting" as long as you're, you know, cool, and still down with the little people. Is that right?

Because I know you're not saying that this guy made all that money by accident, and that he never tried to be successful. You can't be naive enough to believe that. Can you?

 

[DirtyJersey13]

To clarify, speaking only for myself, when I disparage poets, what I am criticising is not the creative person per se, but the self-serving, back-stabbing ego mania of the competitive poet who claws his/her way to the top of the dung hill. It's an ugly thing, and so ridiculous, because the larger world doesn't give a fig for poetry. It's the battle of the small pond. When I see it (in others, in myself), I am repulsed. My only desire is to write the best poems I can, and to get them in the hands of people who will appreciate them and hopefully draw some pleasure from them. Being recognized by the masses is monstrous and meaningless. Prizes, awards, prestigious publication have no attraction to me and seem counter productive. Being published by Bill Roberts means a hell of a lot more. That is true distinction.

Rekrab, that has to be one of the best examples of humility I have ever come across. The art will never die with people like you around.

 

[Rekrab]

But, to be honest, I don't trust myself in this regard. I think I'm full of shit and probably lying, and probably aching for fame and glory. The monster of ego is ferocious. What I said may have sounded good, but is it true? Damned if I know. I don't trust it. I do know that I'd rather be published by Bill than Harpers. That much is rock solid.

 

[mjp]

Why not both?

 

[Rekrab]

Yeah, both is better. From BOSP to Harpers. Harpers negotiating with Bill for reprint rights. Dream big.

On selling out, it tried that circa 1986-1996, and they weren't buying what I was selling. It's not that easy to sell your soul. A supply and demand thing. Lots of souls for sale, not much demand for them. You can work like a maniac at it and nothing happens but doors slammed in your face. Writers who successfully sell out are 1) talented (lots of that around), 2) hard workers to the point of obsession, 3) lucky and/or connected. Not that it's a worthy goal, but don't underestimate the difficulty of that path.

 

[Stavrogin]

Rekrab, that has to be one of the best examples of humility I have ever come across. The art will never die with people like you around.

Don't be fooled by that humility, DJ. There's some sharp tooth and nail in his poetry. And I agree, as long as one holds Odin in his heart, Valhalla is alive and well.

 

[Lolita Twist]

Hmm. Well, your EDIT didn't really make anything clear to me. It still sounds like the status quo. "one mansion or two?" is extreme wealth, but "should I buy bread or water?" sounds like poverty. All I'm saying that doing things or embracing ideas that contribute to your own poverty is shortsighted and idiotic.

Eh, "should I buy bread or water" isn't meant to illustrate poverty. Poverty is more like, "should I eat the one day old loaf or the two and save the one day old for desert?". The bread or water is more like being humble. And not that you've contributed to your own humbleness by holding yourself back on purpose, no, just that well, you happened to end up there, and so be it, your work's still good. That's what I'm saying. As long as your work has soul it shouldn't really matter. But to TRY for the gold, then it affects your work.

I have to say though, I love the bit about the teacher with the "beautiful" new BMW with the "lavish" farm teaching the poor, deprived city kids. I wonder, does he park his "beautiful" new BMW near the school? Does he bring those kids on probation out to his "lavish" farm on the weekends? Someone call the pope, this guy needs to be made a saint. Get Will Smith on the phone. I think I just found his next shitty movie.

Yes he parks the beautiful BMW right in the lot. It is white and a bit dirty at times. I'm sure some kids go out to his farm - he's got facebook and all and adds everyone. And no, he didn't really try for the gold. He's a guy who enjoyed telling stories, and someone liked them, so they got published, and wound up selling well, in different countries too. Yeah it would make a good shitty movie.

I don't know what he was supposed to illustrate - he seems to represent everything you are saying is vile: the expensive car and property that he purchased with the filthy wages of his sold out soul. What I seem to hear you saying is it's okay to do the things that you find "disgusting" as long as you're, you know, cool, and still down with the little people. Is that right?

Yeah that's kind of what I'm saying. It's ok if it kind of falls into your lap and you're still honest. It's ok to do if you keep your soul. For example, I think Cadillacs have incredible soul.

 

[Gerard K H Love]

I think Cadillacs have incredible soul.

Do you have blond hair? You know, butter blond?;)

 

[mjp]

And no, he didn't really try for the gold. He's a guy who enjoyed telling stories, and someone liked them, so they got published, and wound up selling well, in different countries too.

I'm not sure how he had his stories published unless he tried to have them published. They didn't flutter out of his funky old word processor on their own like butterflies, you know, and fly to a benevolent publisher and land on their shoulder.

Whatever he may have told you, whatever you may chose to believe, he tried. I've never heard of a publisher that has to seek out work by people who just don't care because, you know, there aren't enough submissions piling up on their desks otherwise. Especially one that makes royalty payments and has a worldwide distribution channel.

But I could be wrong. That's always a strong possibility any time I'm typing or thinking or my lips are moving. There are plenty of writers around here. Maybe they know of such magical situations and can set me straight. Tell me these kinds of things happen all the time. Because otherwise, it sounds like some bullshit (or hero worship) to me.

 

[esart]

What's with all the shame in having ambition?

 

[Rekrab]

Even the extremely gifted and lucky ones are trying like sons of bitches, or they don't get published. It doesn't just happen. That would be magic -- possible but highly unlikely.

Nothing wrong with ambition, per se. It's what you will allow yourself to do to get there that is the concern. What you become on the way. Desire is corrosive. Worse is envy. Saints have ambition.

 

[Lolita Twist]

Do you have blond hair? You know, butter blond?;)

Haha I caught that when I looked at your sig. Always have loved that quote. I was blonde once, but, I feel the black suits me better. Or the red. But, I'm feeling the black at the moment.

And, Mr. JP, even when you know, you never know. Like I told a loved one today, you may drink yourself into one million dollars.

 

[hoochmonkey9]

ugh.

anyone else tired of this thread?

outlaw poets is a stupid term.

I want to be published by the small press because they love words and publishing them and creating unusual and beautiful things to hold. but I also want someone from Harper Collins to read one of my small press books and be blown away and give me a book deal so I don't have to work part time in a department store like I've been doing for 22 years. I'm ambitious and proud of it.

cars don't have souls. except 1955 Chevy Bel-Airs. everyone knows that. it's on wikipedia.

and David Barker is a good poet.

I think that covers it?

 

[Stavrogin]

Yeah, the candy has been beat out of this pinata.

 

[mjp]

anyone else tired of this thread?

I am tired of seeing "outlaw poets" keep popping up, but I like where the thread has gone.

But I've made my point, yes, and I believe everyone else has made their points as well.



Please don't hit me!

Again...

 

[Rekrab]

Go ahead, lock it and throw away the key.